UMSL @ 60 - Terry Freerks

Interviewer: Kai Kramer

Narrator: Terry Freerks

Date: 11/30/2023

Location: Lucas Hall

Duration:

Transcript 00:02:00Kai Kramer: All right, we're now recording. My name is Wakiya H Kramer. I go by Kai. The day is Thursday, November 30th of the year is 2023. I'm conducting an oral history interview on behalf of the University of Missouri, Saint Louis, and I'm interviewing Doctor Terry Freerks to document her insights and experiences while growing up, attending UMSL and also her professional life. Can you please state your full name?

Dr. Terry Freerks: Yes, my name is Terry Varney Freerks.

KK: Do you mind spelling that as well, please?

TF: F R E E R K S for the last name, the middle name V A R N E Y. And Terry is TERRY.

KK: All right. Thank you so much. I'm just letting you know that you are being recorded. And then when we finish the interview, I'm going to ask you to sign a 00:03:00release form and in about a week or so, we'll be able to e-mail you a copy of the oral history that we're going to post on an online platform called OHMS, which is an online platform for oral history. Dr. Freerks: Interesting KK: Yes. Yes, it's very fascinating. So, thank you so much. And I'm just going to start with a few basic questions. First, what year were you born and where were you born?

TF: 1953 St. Louis, MO, Downtown Barnes hospital.

KK: Barnes hospital. And what is your occupation?

TF: Well, I'm retired now. I had two occupations, one of which was coaching, swimming and then overseeing an entire swimming program. So, I was the executive director of that, which was a 501 C3. And I was also in private practice for mental health.

KK: Ohh OK did you practice as a counselor then? TF: Yes 00:04:00KK: Ohh. OK. Very interesting. And if you could, can you please tell me the names of your parents and maybe what they did for a living, as well?

TF: Absolutely. My father, Fred Varney and he was an entrepreneur and very big in real estate printing company sporting goods, whole variety of things. He was also very philanthropic in terms of his time and his resources. He was at one point the head of the park and was very involved with the Red Cross in terms of getting Red Cross people certified around water.

KK: Oh, I see. So, you came from a family who had a background with swimming and water and like, water safety then?

TF: Well, absolutely. My father went to Washington University, and he was captain of the swimming team. 00:05:00And he went to Harvard University for officers Training school for the Navy right after the war started. And he was a Lieutenant in the Navy. And he was on a battleship, USS Maryland.

KK: Oh. OK

TF: And he was the supply officer, so he was kind of in the supply chain, if you will. So very interesting.

KK: OK. Do you mind telling me a little bit more about that. Like what would supply officers’ duties be, what were their obligations?

TF: Well, he had to make sure, he was in the Pacific theatre And so he had to make sure there were supplies. There were 2000 men on the battleship. So we're talking about any kind of supply you would possibly need. Food. You know, clothing. Probably some weapons, those kinds of things. 00:06:00And you know, he talked fondly about it because there was a lot of negotiation. My ship needs this. We're not going to be getting it. Your ship needs that. What do you think?

KK: That makes a lot of sense because supplies and resources would have been very precious when you're fighting a war, you know, an ocean away from your supply base, right. Yeah, that that is very important job. That's very interesting.

TF: Absolutely, yeah. Now my mother says that it ruined him because he couldn't, after he got out of the service, he couldn't go to the grocery store without buying gallons of ketchup and big bats of green beans, you.

KK: Of course, he was all about preparing for the worst, I suppose, right?

TF: That's right. That's we might run out.

KK: We might run out. that's great. That makes sense. 00:07:00TF: Yes

KK: So you mentioned your mother. What was her name?

TF: Patricia tilt, Patricia Tilt Varney and she was a model, and she also went to Knox College in New York And she was pretty much stay at home Mom. She had five children and she had three that were, well, two kind of right before my dad left, they had one then when he was in the service, she had another child.

KK: Oh, OK.

TF: And then then starting in 1950, they had three more. So, i’m the fifth of five.

KK: You're the fifth of five. OK, you're the youngest.

TF: I’m the youngest, yeah. So, three girls, a boy and a girl and her father was involved in the founding of Brown Shoe Company and diamond tea trucking. 00:08:00KK: OK.

TF: And my father's father was vice president of the rock Island railroad. KK: The Rock Island railroad. OK, that's very interesting. So where was your mother from originally?

TF: She was a Saint Louisan, and my father was born in Oklahoma City and then he came to Saint Louis as a young child, and he went to Alton, Military Academy Across the river. Yeah. And he loved it. He, his father, was traveling all the time. His mom was here, but he lived on campus, and he played football, baseball. He played everything and he really enjoyed it. But of course, his number one love was swimming. Yeah. And so he made a decision that when he had five children, everybody was going to swim.

KK: His number one love was swimming, of course.

KK: So when he served it was in the Navy?

TF: He was Navy. Yes, he was Navy, yes.

KK: It's a natural fit for Somebody who wants to swim, right? 00:09:00TF: Absolutely. In fact, he used to talk about it. They'd say that they'd stopped the ship in the middle of the ocean, and the guys, you know, they wanted to go swimming. I mean, they needed something to break it up.

KK: Of course.

TF: And they would get off the ship and they'd go swimming and they were snipers shooting sharks.

KK: I'm not surprised, right? I mean, you would get very bored out in the middle of the ocean on this ship. So I'm not surprised. TF: And it was hot and you know, obviously there's a lot of pressure on these people.

KK: Understandable. So you mentioned that you have four siblings. Can you tell me a little bit about any of your siblings? Do any of them live around Saint Louis still?

TF: Well, I've lost two.

KK: Oh, OK, I'm sorry.

TF: And I have two others. So, I have a sister living in Los Angeles.

KK: Oh, OK. 00:10:00TF: And she's been pretty much A stay at home Mom. She has three sons. Who are grown and she's married to an electrical engineer who was very involved with Monsanto, and he was also involved in the space program. He was the guy that designed the spacesuits.

KK: Really. That is so fascinating because i think it's just incredible. Like you mentioned, obviously we've been talking about the ocean. It's almost like, you know, a diving suit where you're designing something. That is supposed to work somewhere that we don't really know anything about. Yeah, so you'd have to be very smart, I think, to design A space too, that that's incredible. And what about your other sibling? TF: Isn't that cool? KK: That is so cool.

TF: Right, yeah. I have another sister who lives in Texas and she's a stay-at-home Mom. She had three children and she was married to a thoracic surgeon.

KK: Oh, OK.

TF: And he was he did the first heart transplant on a women In the United States, and he worked with Debaki* down in Texas, he went to medical school at the University of North Carolina and then did his residency here at Barnes. And that's how they met. They went to the same party.

KK: Ohh OK, I see they went to the same Party at Barnes.

TF: and there you go.

KK: OK. Yeah, yeah, that that's very interesting. All right, so I know this is kind of a big question, but I just wanted to kind of ask it just to kind of get you, you know, I don't know. Thinking about your life and experience and about yourself, but what would you say are some of the most important factors that help shape your personal identity? Like, what are some of the qualities about yourself that you kind of look to say, OK, I can rely on this, this is what has gotten me to where I am, and this is what gives me confidence. Are there any things that jump to mind?

TF: Well, I’m definitely disciplined and that may be a consequence of certainly my education, 00:12:00but also my athletic because you know, if you don't, particularly in swimming, swimming is really hard. They do a lot, a lot of training in swimming. It's not like football practice where you show up and, you know, throw the ball around. And I'm really, yeah, you're putting in a lot in a lot of yardages. So very DIFFERENT.

KK: Yeah, you can really mess around.

TF: I'm also very resilient and I'm not sure where I got my resiliency from, maybe from my family I don't know. But you know, if you're going to have a long career and you're going to be involved with people and you're trying to help and be engaged in the community. Everything’s not always going to go your way, and you may not always be successful athletically or academically or person’s family and you know, 00:13:00I've certainly had ups and downs and INS and outs and. But I Recover pretty well from them and I try to Learn from them.

KK: Umm you try to learn from them. I yeah, I. I'm not surprised to hear you say that. Reading about your background, I think to be such a successful coach, I think obviously discipline and coaching is what you hear. Coaches preach discipline often, right? But I think that's really interesting that you would say resilience too, because I think I'm just curious, you know, you started at Clayton Park Shaw in 1973.Is that correct?

TF: That's where I started coaching ,so if we can I back up a little bit. So, this will give you I think kind of a timeline or synopsis.

KK: Oh, of course. Yeah, go ahead.

TF: So, i was born and raised in Saint Louis in the central West End.

KK: OK, in the central west end.

{ 00:14:00] TF: Yeah. And as a consequence of that, I was very fortunate because I lived in kind of a a safe, insular neighborhood and we were always in each other's homes and running around. And it was so safe. And it was, it was lovely And so I got this really good appreciation of Saint Louis Neighborhood history. The other thing about growing up in the city in the central West End was I was able to imbibe in all the wonderful civic and cultural and historic venues in Saint Louis. So I was at the fox all the time in Powell and Forest Park and Sportsman's Park and the History Museum.

Kk: that's fantastic.

TF: so that was wonderful. Now I went to school K through 12 in Clayton And because my father was in real estate, 00:15:00he owned a lot of property in Clayton, so they allowed d us to. Go to school there because we were paying taxes and in the city there weren't a lot of options near where we were. And so, in Clay and Clayton in the Clayton School districts, I learned two very important things. Number one, you have to study.And number. Too, I learned how to learn.

KK: You learned how to learn. That's that's very interesting. While you were going through K through 12 and Clayton, were there any particular teachers who might have kind of inspired you or just some people around, maybe role models that you maybe learned? From in that regard, how to learn how to kind of open your mind in a Sense, I suppose.

TF: Well, they must have 00:16:00Had some kind of teaching philosophy there when I was there and that was, they could criticize your work and your performance. Without alienating you, so I learned how to take the feedback because somehow in the context it was OKSo you know, there was encouragement to try. And it was OK to fail as long as. As you learn from it and they could see that, but they were very nurturing like I had all my papers that I wrote in high school, every one of. Them was conferenced. So yes, isn't that fascinating? Yeah. And so I learned how to write. Now I had a sophomore history teacher. Whom I absolutely adored, and she was the one who really made me choose history for the undergraduate degrees in history. But she had the most influence, you know, kind of the opulence I had, European history with her. And it was like the opulence, you know, of Louis the 14th.

KK: Right. OK.

TF: You know in in the, you know, Marxist dialectic, you know, with angles and how they left out the human element. So she made it applicable to Life..

KK: Life to Somebody living in Saint Louis at that time?

TF: Yeah. And then the just the value of it and then Clayton was the home of my swimming career because I started swimming for Clayton Shaw Park as a child. In fact, I joined the team when I was four and I swam all the way through high.

TF: When you were. Four, OK, I see.

TF: And i swam all the way through high school . And when I graduated from Clayton, I went to Arizona State University in order to swim.

KK: Oh, OK. 00:18:00TF:It was one of the few programs in the United States in the early 70s that had women's collegiate swimming.

KK: I see.

TF: But there was No title 9, there was no scholarships. So, I went to ASU. I absolutely loved it. I was studying. History and I got a call from my dad and he said we don't have any money. You had to. Come home. So, I came home and I had to get a job because I wanted to go to school and I had to pay for it, so I contacted my swimming club.

KK: Of course.

TF: I said I'm home. Can I come, coach? And they said we'd love to have you. So, I started coaching and then I put myself through school here and got my undergraduate degree. And then I went on and got a Master’s degree. 00:19:00All that good stuff at Clayton and all that good stuff, really in the city. But on this campus at the University of Missouri, St. Louis is. Where I grew up, This is where I learned how to be personally responsible for myself. It's where I learned independence of thought, accountability really for my own deeds and you know, I was held accountable for it. So, I had an absolutely outstanding experience. So the swimming team's doing well. They had problems with the head coaches. I was an assistant and the head coach got let go. So, on bended knee I begged them to let me be the head coach.

KK: The head coach?

TF: The head coach, so. I was very young. I was like 21 and I said I I can do this. I mean, I had a great swimming career. I know about this.

KK: Of course, yeah. You had the confidence.

TF: And I had the confidence, but I was female.

KK: You would coach both boys and girls, right? And that would have been, I'm guessing, pretty rare in the 70s, right? Pre Title-9 and everything.

TF: Very, very. Oh my gosh. It was like unheard of. but the team was in very, you know, it was declining. So I took the program over. There were 13 kids. So I started putting a lot of energy into that. And then I decided when I went to go on and get my master’s degree, I thought, Well, I need to get, You know Some understanding of exercise Physiology because it was just starting to get the attention and the idea was they were trying to figure out if exercise would Prolong your Life. it wasn't Even discussed that there weren't people out running and switching.

KK: That's so fascinating because it seems like a foregone conclusion that the more you exercise, you'll be more healthy the longer that you'll probably live, right? That's so interesting.

TF: How things change. And that was just that was totally cutting Edge, so I decided not to get a master’s degree in history, but to get one they it was conferred out of the School of Education here at UM St. Louis. But the courses I was able to take were exercise Physiology, kinesiology, sports psych, kind of a neurology, kind of thing. In addition, I had to take education classes because the degrees they have are in education

KK: Right, of course.

TF: So I did that when I graduated, I was still coaching the teams going really well. I'm dealing with, you know, how The bias are against women because I'm on the deck coaching with men and they didn't like that.

Kk: I'm sure they didn't, especially at the time. Yes, that yes, that would have made them feel like it reflected poorly on them or something, I'm sure, right?

TF: It was very hard, yeah. And Well, I got that I, I never really got 00:22:00You can't do this. The message they always gave me was, You shouldn't. It's not a woman's place. 00:23:00Speaker 1

Kk: That's interesting. It was that even more frustrating. In some ways, would you say?

TF: Well, it was, yeah, it was like well. Maybe I shouldn't, but I'm going to do it anyway, I mean, you know You didn't tell me I can't, right? Yeah. You didn't tell me. I can't. And. And of course, I I wanted to do it. I was enjoying it. So, I graduated with my master’s degree. And I had two things happen. Number one, I had a swimmer qualify for a national event, our first one since I was in charge. So, It's a big deal. So, I talked to her family and she qualified for one race. It was in California, Palo Alto.

KK: Of course.

TF: This is important for her, and it's important for us because other good swimmers will come and be attracted, so we go out there and a meets last, you know, they're like a week. So, depending upon when your event is and she was like the third day or 4th day. And so, she gets up on the blocks. Swimmers take your marks. And she moves her hand and she's disqualified.

KK: Oh no. All the way out to palo alto.

TF: All that expense, all that, all well and then this terrific disappointment. Now I was also working at the time at Barnes Hospital. I was actually in the Irene Walter Johnson School. Not School, Institute of Rehabilitation and it would work with cardiac and renal rehab patients. And they had gotten a grant from the federal government to study exercise and whether or not it would prolong their life.

KK: If It made people more healthy? 00:25:00Speaker 2

TF: If it made people more healthy. So, The second thing that happened was I was working with a whole group of people, but there was one young woman who was in her early 20s and she had very severe renal disease and I tried to get Wash U to put a pool down there on the, you know, the medical campus, For people who are in rehabilitation and that kind of thing, it's.A lot easier than running.

KK: Yes, it it can be extremely beneficial. You know, to the physical therapy to have access to.A pool, right?

TF: Yes, And it's lighter. And then you don't have the joints. And if your health is challenging you anyway, but they didn't have it. 00:26:00So what we did have was a track back and this young gal, you know, everybody else is walking on prescribing programs and collecting data and but this, you know, she and I wanted to run, so I said let's run, you know. So she got to be a really good runner and they were just starting. This was in the late 70s. They're just starting to have running events.

KK: OK.Right.

TF: So they had a big running event at Forest Park. So she went out and she ran the race and afterwards. She passed away. KK: Ohh no. TF: on Monday morning, I came into the hospital. And, you know, I met with the physicians and the nurses and me and, you know, anybody else that was on the team and we were going through cases. And I said, well, how about, you know? And they said, well, 00:27:00you know, she passed away over the weekend. And I got up from that meeting and I thought to myself, Physiology. I have to understand psychology. I have to understand how do you handle the emotions when somebody gets disqualified. How do you help people accept their limitations? Because that's basically what happen with the renal patient and she was doing great. She loved it and she made some poor choices. So, I contacted Saint Louis University and I said I want to study psychology and I in particular, I want to study counseling. So how do I apply for the doctoral program?

KK: Right.

TF: And so I did and I and then I matriculated there. And that's where I learned to be more of an academician, maybe, and certainly a mental health clinician. 00:28:00So when I graduated, I went into practice with two of my advisors. They had a private practice, and I was looking for a home and interestingly enough, they had a. Son who had graduated from Cornell University, and he was a runner. He had gone to Clayton High and he was a runner when he graduated from Cornell and he ran there, he came home and he goes, you know, I really want to dip into this triathlete line because they were starting just around that time. So now we're in the 80s, early 80s, and so they were looking for a swimming coach because he could run. I mean, he was a great runner, and he could swim, but he wasn't a great swimmer, and these were my, you know, single as you advisors and I said bring him to me. I said, now he's got to come to morning practice because in morning practice I can help him more. 00:29:00Afternoon practice was more crowded. It was more difficult. He was an adult, you know? It was just a benefit.

KK: That makes sense.

TF: And he was religious about it. He was great And so I worked with him for probably two or three years, and he's getting better and better and better at triathlons. And he comes to me on a Saturday morning. I had just returned from an Ashton meet in Seattle, and he said, now, Terry, I don't want to disappoint you, I said. But my swimming's going really well. I got to spend more time on the bike. In the next day, he was killed. In a road accident out in West County.

KK: Ohh no, really?

TF: And it was devastating for everyone. KK: Ohh, I can imagine that that's horrible. 00:30:00TF: Horrible, horrible timing yes, and In any event, you know I I continued coaching. I I pursued my counseling career and then I went into a large psychiatric practice because what I was seeing mostly was. The worried well, if you will, that people that had anxiety had depression, but they were on the most part healthy and I wanted to kind of fill out My Portfolio to be able to help people who are bipolar or schizophrenic. And so I went into a large psychiatric practice and I was there for 10 years and then I went back into private practice.

KK: Oh, OK. Back into private practice. So I want to ask you something then. 00:31:00Would you say that coaching and counseling have a lot in common as far as what you need to succeed in both or in or in other words, Do you think that coaching has helped make you a better counselor, and counseling has helped make you a better coach.

TF: Absolutely. Yeah. It was a hand in glove. I mean, they fit extremely well together and they're very similar. Because you're trying to help someone get from point A to point B with all the emotions and the challenges.

KK: Of course.

TF: That go with It but the contexts are very, very different in swimming and. Coaching it's, you know, group setting most often. It's loud, it's very public. And it's very there are a lot of eyes on It, so you got a lot of critique.

KK: You're so right. It is so loud. I can remember being at a swim Meet in the gym. The splashing, the yelling. Yes, it's very loud clapping.

TF: There you go.

TF: And counseling, of course. Very confidential. Very private, You know very much. You know, one-on-one unknowingly, but both of them used some relationships to help facilitate change and and promote health. And both of them complement each other and that it's very common now that we say, Get out and exercise. 00:32:00As you were alluding to, you know it's gonna help you feel less anxious. It's gonna help you sleep better. It's gonna help you feel better about yourself and then, of course, in coaching when situations arise, then you can share, you know, some tips about how to tolerate those feelings and how to learn to live with them and even embrace them and utilize them to make you a better athlete.

KK: Of course. Yeah. And I just want to say, it's fascinating. Again that only a few short years ago in the grand scheme of things that we didn't quite see a connection between. 00:33:00Physical fitness and health as well as mental health as well. Because wouldn't you say you know that? I mean obviously you kind of just said this, but your mental health and physical health are very much linked, absolutely.

TF: Absolutely, You know, I'm very fortunate in that, you know, I came into physical health awareness when it was young. So, I sort of live through the process and we're now, I think in that process with mental health. And so, as a consequence, you know, people are saying I need to take a day off. I need a mental health day. They're saying, you know, like Simone Biles.

KK: Mm-hmm. Yes, of course. The Olympic level athlete. Yeah.

TF: So she comes in as a huge hero in the world, 00:34:00I mean, and it was based primarily on her outstanding performances over time, Olympic gold medalist, part of the winning Olympic team. Oh, the wonderful ambassador for the sport. You know, very clear. So she goes to the Olympics, the last Olympics And she says, I can't. I can't Make the bell. You know, I can't. I can't do this. And she was already there, and how she handled it. She came out and she told everybody I can't do this and This is why I can't do it, which is extremely healthy. And she left that Olympics that she didn't compete, and left more of Hero than when she came in.

KK: I think that's a great point too, because she really proved how courageous 00:35:00she was to make that choice, because you consider how hard she worked to get there, you know, and how successful and the expectations on her to be able to stand out and make a stand and say, hey, I think it. You know, I want to represent my country, but I also want to serve as an example. Going forward by saying I just can't do this right now. You know this is too much for me. I'm not in the right. Spot. I thought that was really incredible of her. And you know, not to cut you off, but there was the Naomi Osaka in tennis a couple years later, who also did the same thing, and it it was very reassuring to know that Simone Biles kind of made that normal, you know, she gave the next person courage that this is OK. Now it's OK to do it for yourself.

TF: And I I think that's exactly accurate. It's normalizing. That we have mental health challenges. Everybody does. Everybody does and it's nothing to be stigmatized. 00:36:00And I think we're not totally there yet on treatments because unlike setting a broken arm where you see it's broken and you Of it, you know, there's still kind of this, If I can't see it, then it's mystical, right? Yes. I think we're making lots of progress. People will say now I have to go see my counselor. I got to tell you 20 years ago, they weren't doing that.

KK: Yes, it it was probably much more of a secret. You wouldn't want people to know, right? Yeah. And now it's more. It's accepted. But yeah, that's fantastic.

TF: Yes, it was a secret, yeah.

KK: It's become acceptable. Yeah. Well, that's all good. So we talked about health and I'm curious to hear from a competitive athlete. Going back to maybe when you were competing and younger and even in your college years, how is what is considered healthy changed since your time growing up and in college? 00:37:00Are there some things that were understood to be good for an athlete that are now considered to be unhealthy, or even dangerous?

TF: Absolutely there are and I think it speaks to that more people are studying, more people are participating, more people are saying, I'm not going to do that So you know, I mean, so take that out of the regimen. And the other thing I think that's happened is that coaches have gotten more educated.

KK: Right.

TF: Now I have to tell you when I was coaching there were there. Were coaches most of them? You know, on the higher levels PHD degrees, there were five women on the national level when I was there, four of whom were coaching in college. So the college had educated people. But age group programs dealing with kids did not necessarily have that. And that's changed because we know more about health and well-being and training with children now than we ever knew. And we certainly know more about the sport than we ever knew.

KK: OK, right.

TF: So I think there were two outstanding changes for the better. Number one, coaches were there were more Vince Lombardi for the threw the egg up on the wall and see if it sticks. If it cracks into 1000 pieces and run down, theyre out right there, you know, so it was and it was the reinforcement and that's really the wrong word, the feedback. Was more negative. It was certainly. Everything about what you're doing wrong, what's and what's wrong with you? You know what kind of person are you that you can't take losing and that kind of stuff?

KK: Right that it it was very heavy on insults to motivate. Like you said, negative reinforcements. 00:39:00TF: Yes, yes, insults to motivate absolutely and in a group setting. So, you have shaming, insulting and you know, but there was there was kind of an unwritten collusion With parents. Parents wanted their children with the meanest hard ass Male coach. They could get, yeah. And they looked at me and other women coaches, although as I said, there were very, very few. As you're more like a mother, you're not really coaching. So, you went from this really authoritarian to oh, you're too nurturing. And you know, that was that was the not. But of course we've learned number one that that authoritarian stuff doesn't work. And we've also learned that that parents need to supervise their children and they need to see what's going on. When I was coaching. 00:40:00There were male coaches in Saint Louis, but it was all over the country that wouldn't let parents come in and watch practice.

KK: Really? Huh.

TF: Say, like the doors, and say you're not allowed. In here, yeah.

KK: Just out of just to show that they were in charge. You think?

TF: Yes, to show that they were in charge. They were running this railroad. They didn't need your input. They didn't want your input. Now, I wasn't like that. I was very much. I want this to be a family situation. No child drives himself to swim practice when they're 8. I I wanted the families there and I wanted them involved in to keep the kids engaged and what I would tell them is I would say, look And I'd meet with them. I'd meet with every family. 00:41:00that was on our team and I would say I am not your child's parent. You are your child's mom. You are your child's dad and nobody else can claim that .So don't put that on me. I'm their coach. But if you and I work together and you have insights that you can share with us and I have some insights that I can share with you most often was, don't coach him. but it Worked and then you know the program, I mean when I left the program, which was just recently, I mean we're up over 600 swimmers and you know it's got a great reputation, it's got, you now, the right philosophy. It's almost like other programs started to catch up. Ohh, but they started to catch up because the information came out there and was available. I don't think they would have done. 00:42:00It personally, yeah. Yeah, it's just They kind of learned.

KK: Right. Yeah, they learned that there was a better way to do. Things. Well, that's so interesting. So if you don't mind, I kind of want to jump back and just talk a little bit about your experience. Your first experiences at UMSL. You mentioned that you first attended Arizona State as a freshman straight out of high school and through your freshman year, you came back to Saint Louis to help your family.

TF: It was after my first semester sophomore year, yes. So, and that the thing of it was when I came to UMSL. They had no women swimming. In fact, I don't think they had women or men swimming when I came back. 00:43:00So that really marked the end of my competitive swimming career. Yeah, but in your interesting thing happened. Well, first of all, I absolutely have the utmost respect for the faculty. Nobody was ugly, Unprofessional, Demanding. Unavailable. They were always there. They were just, it was nurturing. Now I went and I looked at horseshoe and I looked at slew. And the reason now there was a financial reason, but the but the primary was that I felt so accepted and so supported and so nurtured and guided. People listened to me, so I have this story so I can't swim. There's no swimming team right?

KK: Right.

TF: But they have a pool. We have a pool, Right? So, I would take classes and then the pool opened at noon. So, I wanted to go workout so I would go over to Mark Twain and there were two people, me and this other woman, and we would just sit there and wait for them to come open the door and then we would get in and swim. So after I don't know how long it was, It could have been a month and a half. Finally, this woman looks at me and she goes. You know, maybe we should introduce ourselves. I said, well, that's probably a good idea since we always standing here, we're talking about who knows what, you know?

KK: It was like you were polite to a fault. Almost?

TF: Exactly, It was Blanche Touhill.

KK: Oh, OK. So that's how you Met her initially?

That’s initially How I Met her and she was a history professor. 00:45:00OK and. And so then, you know, as I started to, You know, move up. I mean take higher level classes. She taught the history of Great Britain, I think, and Irish history. And I would take her classes and I just adore her. And she was my most important mentor in my life.

KK: She was in your whole Life, you'd say?

TF: I would say in my entire life, you know. She was remarkable and remarkable to me, and she was always stretching me Academically and personally.

KK: Is there anything in particular from her that you kind of have applied to your professional life? Anything maybe that she taught you specifically about how she carried herself, how she conducted herself?

TF: Well, she had a tremendous amount of energy. And a tremendous amount of interest, she is really, really smart. 00:46:00And you know, she talked about anything she and she knew about things, and she wanted. She had a vision for this university. Now, I didn't know that at the time because she was a professor. She wasn't in administration. Now later on, I think when I finish my Master’s degree, she might have been vice Chancellor of academic affairs or something since there was an admin piece. Yeah. Summerall at that point.

KK: Right. She had moved into the administration in some role at that point?

TF: Right, You know, she was just so welcoming and so down to Earth, and that was the other thing that I loved about. This campus and it's here today because I'm very involved with the university, and everybody is very down to Earth. There's no arrogance. There's literally none. 00:47:00No stupid question, you know? There nobody's rolling their eyes or anything.

KK: That's so true. I'm an undergraduate set to graduate in a couple weeks, and I I can say the same thing about my experience. Here people are so nice and welcoming and understanding.

TF: And understanding, yes.

KK: Yes, it's really a fantastic place to go to school.

TF: It's it is. It's remarkable. And, you know, we talk about when we graduate, you know, being workforce development and being career ready and absolutely that you have that.

KK: Of course.

TF: But you have this kind of centeredness.

And comfort with who you are and what you're about. And you know, your education was great. So you feel competent. So, it's just kind of putting the package together and in in my role currently now, you know, on the Chancellor's Council. And I'm involved in various companies 00:48:00and invariably, corporations, they want to they want to hire.

KK: Right. Which makes sense.

TF: Which does make sense and I think it's a combination of Obviously, they're professionally prepared, but they also do what needs to be done, and they do it in a nice way. I I don't know how to say it.

KK: No, I know exactly what you mean now. I know that you and your husband Stan helped sponsor a scholarship. To help pay for a student, usually a history major with an athletic background, to attend UMSL. 00:49:00Would you say that your positive experiences with UMSL and the professors and people you met here, has that really encouraged you or inspired you to want to give back as an alumni to the university?

TF: Absolutely, So my husband and I are both retired. And we, you know, are very engaged in the community, but we're also very thorough in our thought processes in terms of how we're going to enter and how we're going to participate. I mean, we're thoughtful to that. We give that. We think about it, we. Talk about it.

KK: Right, absolutely.

TF: And one of the things the themes there are really two major themes. The one that has gotten us so involved in UMSL is, of course, our experience here, but we want to make opportunities, educational opportunities available to others. I mean that is so important to us. It's an internal value. 00:50:00And we feel that higher public education in Saint Louis is sitting here. This is who we have to support. You know, I'm not worried about people who can afford to go to Wash U. I don't think they need me. You know, and I went to SLU, I don't think they need me and Stan. I think I'm so if I put dollars here I'm going to make a better investment, per capita than I would if I were anywhere else. It's just the university here and I have so much respect for Wash U and SLU, but the university here, it's really a place where, you know, it's not a private school, it's a great place to go get an education. 00:51:00To start to your education, and it has such a wonderful history of being a welcoming where everybody who wants to try to get an education will be welcome and feel at home at UMSL.

KK: That’s a great point.

TF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that if anyone is sort of sitting on the fence about whether a college education is for them, once they take a few classes and they get immersed in it, they realize the value of it. So, I think it does so much in terms of. Getting people faced in the right direction. And when that happens, then it grows because then their friends, their family, everyone learns about the value of education because they're many families where That is not a foregone conclusion. You know that these are, you know, first generation college students. 00:52:00KK: Absolutely. And you know, like we mentioned earlier, Simone Biles, it takes a lot of courage to be the first person in your family to say I can do this, I'm smart enough to do this.

TF: And then you're a role model. And as the Chancellor, Sobolik always likes to talk about it. It raises everyone, you know, everyone, you know in your constellation is raised by. You know the choices that you make.

KK: That's so true.

TF: And then and what you do with it? And then they see that they can do it, just like as you mentioned. Simone did and they see that you can come out and say, you know, my life isn't perfect, you know, and I have things I have to attend to now. But, you know, and then if you take her a step further here she is back and better than she's ever been.

KK: Isn't that isn't that wonderful?

TF: That's remarkable, because that's a whole other message that you can have challenges and you can have trauma and you can be resilient.

KK: Exactly. And you can take a break and come back better than you ever were, you know? And I think that's such an important message. So one thing I wanted to ask really quick. What were your impressions of UMSL before you attended UMSL? You grew up fairly close to the university. Did you have any preconceived notions about the university before you attended or anything of that sort?

TF: Actually no.

KK: Oh, OK.

TF: I I thought of It, I knew I was going to stay in Saint Louis, and I thought of it as the University of Missouri, Saint Louis. That was it. Honest to goodness, I had no preconceived notions nobody tell me told me not to do it. Nobody told me to do it. I was kind of on my own, but that 00:54:00was it and my degree says University of Missouri, St. Louis. I mean, I thought I was in that system.

KK: Right. You were basically just going to the Mizzou, it just Happened to be in Saint Louis, TF: You know, they went to Arizona State. So, I mean, I knew about state schools. I mean, It wasn't anything, I didn't feel anything, I just accepted it. I mean I didn't feel ashamed by it. I didn't feel, You know anything? I just did it.

KK: And obviously it must have been very disappointing on at least some level to leave Arizona State not being not have a swim team here or anything, but you obviously really loved your time at UMSL. At what point did maybe you start realizing, wow, you know, maybe this is exactly where I'm supposed to be.

Absolutely, you know. ] 00:55:00] It wasn't like a light bulb went off. I never looked around. I was where I was supposed To be. KK: Right, you never second guessed it, huh?

TF: I never second guessed it, so my husband, Stan, swimmer of Saint Louis and and he did his undergraduate work at Cornell. Now he graduated A semester early, so he was at Cornell for 3 1/2 years. He graduated. A semester early, he had applied to Wharton School of Business to Northwestern, and I think Stanford and he got in OK, so he went in January, he was still at Cornell, and he went to the job fair. OK, he was, he thought, well yeah, I've got a while before I start Graduate School, Right? Might as well see what my options are, right? And see what my options are and I want to go to work. I mean, his parents paid for his education 00:56:00But they were of, you know, not big bucks and and, you know, modest means. And he respected that, and he said I'm going to get out in three and a half years. So, he goes and it's like snowing up in Ithaca and it's terrible on the day they're supposed to have their thing.

KK: Of course.

TF: And there's like A few people and Only very few businesses open , they're looking for recruits, but very few recruits, you know, because a lot of people didn't graduate, you know, early.

KK: Right, that. That makes sense. Yeah, there'd be less at that time of year.

TF: So he's, you know, he's walking around and he was going to go. He wanted to get an MBA. He toyed with the idea of going to law school anyways. So there was an insurance company, Liberty Mutual, out of Philadelphia was there, You see, and they gave him the best offer and he goes. I don't know. I'll go move to Philadelphia and work for Liberty Mutual, right? 00:57:00So, I mean it was like It was meant to be. So, he goes and he likes it. He absolutely loves it and then he's working in Philadelphia. He's living in Philadelphia. You know, there the schools are going well. Are you going to show up in September or what are you going to do here? And he comes back to Saint Louis, I guess he was in Philadelphia Year or So because he ended up staying, he thought well. I'll just put it out of here. Came back to Saint Louis and then he and I reconnected because we met when I was 11 and he was 12 because he was. A swimmer. KK: Ohh, really? You were both competitive swimmers as children? OK, I assumed you met in college. Alright, that's very interesting.

TF: No, no. So we're at a party and we're thinking, You know we want to be together kind of thing and there was a man there whose name was Ed Boyce and who was very involved in the Baron Gurr Library here on campus with the trains. 00:58:00But he was in insurance and he told Stan and he goes, ditch Philadelphia. Come and work for me in Clayton and my brokerage firm. And Stan's thinking, and I'm thinking that sounds great. Because then we can be together.

KK: Exactly like you said it was. It was meant to be you. Seriously. That's fantastic.

TF: So he goes, he comes back. We're dating, doing all this stuff. He decides. You know, I really do want to get my MBA because he was in the retail side of the business, but then he got kind of pulled into the wholesale side of the business and he and his boss started a wholesale business, whose boss didn't want anything to do with it, so Stan said We're gonna do this, So he bought him out for a dollar because they started the company together. So, Stan founded in his own firm, his own insurance firm.

KK: Right. 00:59:00TF: And he was in charge of everything. Now, his undergraduate degree was in history, and he had a minor in economics, he said. I have to, I have to go to Business School because to get the I got to do this, to get educated and know what the heck I'm doing because I'm dealing with all this. And he's getting more and more successful. So he contacts Wash U and I go, well don't you dare rush off to Wash U until you at least go to and meet the people in the Business School and talk to them so to keep the peace in the family and to, you know, mollify me or whatever. So he went here and he got his MBA and they were wonderful. I mean, we're back to that same kind of thing. He would come in, he'd talked, sit and talk to the professors and says, you know, in in my business I've got this going on. How do you do what? 01:00:00They were Wonderful to him. And he could write his papers and do his studies based on his own business.

KK: And that's so fantastic, he was in the Business School and you were both in different disciplines, but you had the same experience, the same incrediblly positive experience with the welcoming atmosphere and environment. And umm.That's so interesting and just. I'm not surprised to hear that. And I can say that it's really, you know, years later, I had the same experience Attending here.

TF: You know? Yeah, I remember telling people who asked, what do you think about UMSL? I said I wear it like a badge. What somebody's going to tell me I'm wrong? and I don't buy into that.

KK: Right. Yeah. OK, well. I know this Is kind of 01:01:00A big question, but I want to ask it since we're talking about UMSL. In what ways would you say that? UMSL really helped shape your identity or inform your sense of self? How did UMSL help give you confidence that you could succeed in your professional life?

TF: Well, I think it was how They treated me and you know, as I mentioned, I was never shamed. I was never ignored. People were always accessible to me with any question or if I had a problem. You know, my father passed away when I was in school here and I. You know, it was right over Christmas and we used to have finals. You know, as you came back in January ,and he died on Christmas Eve and they were wonderful. You know, they were heartfelt, wonderful. You know and 01:02:00It was genuine .It was genuine and the sense was, you know, if if these people whom I respect, And they're treating me with respect, I must be respectable.

KK: You must be worthy of respect, right? Yeah, and that's great and it just Gives you so much confidence, doesn't it?

TF: Yeah, yeah.

KK: OK. I also wanted to ask you, obviously you went on to earn degrees Masters in different fields, but. You initially earned your history degree here at UMSL has that has your experience and what you learned at UMSL, specifically through history. Would you say that it's improved your quality of life in any other ways?

TF: Well, absolutely. I think it improves my. View of the world. 01:03:00You know, because I'm not seeing things happening for the first time or, out of context. You know, history provides the context to make sense of the world in which we live. And it also provides us insight into what solutions have been tried. When I talk to people and they have, They don't know anything about history. I am like, how do you sift through what solutions Aren't applicable, if you have no idea that they've ever been?

KK: I feel the same way. The world must be terrifying and in so many ways, right without that education.

TF: I would think. Without that education and without that appreciation that we didn't get here by, you know, a meteor landing. Some bizarre happenstance, and we find ourselves here. 01:04:00I mean you, you know, you read and you understand, and you put it together. And then the progression makes sense. In addition to shining some light on what path. You know, may be helpful now, KK: yeah, exactly. I think that's a. Great way of looking at it. Alright, and going back to when you attended campus, I just wanted to ask you really quick. I was curious, were there any places on campus that you routinely attended? You mentioned going swimming, of course, the pool. Was there anything else, like maybe a place that you ate at or anything like that?

TF: I did, the library.

KK: Yeah, yeah. History majors. You gotta love the library, don't you?

TF: Yeah. Yeah. So that that really and. 01:05:00And you know, we'd sit around and, you know, I met people and and, you know, but it was those tow places that I really went. I’d go swimming and I’d go to the library.

KK: So while you were attending, UMSL , what did you imagine yourself doing after you left school? Like, did you have any professional aspirations at the time? Did you imagine yourself one day being a counselor? What do you think you might Do with the history degree?

TF: When I was in school here. I needed an income. So, I was coaching, and I did absolutely anything i could on campus that anybody on campus would let me do and give me a stipend for, so I worked in the gerontology. They were doing a lot in gerontology, studying older adults and they had a swimming program. So, I would go over. On Sunday, I think it was Saturday mornings and teach older adults how to swim.

KK: OK. 01:06:00And Blanche Touhill got me in an internship. if you will, A job, at the military Records Center on page. On Page, at that time it was on page. Now I think it's on 70 And I worked as an archivist for the federal government, and I loved it. Because it was all history and I worked in all four branches, so I started out, you know, I worked in the Army and I learned all about that and military records and I loved it because people would. Call up and they would have requests and they would say my father, you know, was in the infantry behind German lines in France and I want to know under what circumstances did he die.

KK: Right. Oh, wow. Yeah.

TF: And I was able to go and pull logs and daily reports and of course his, you know, service. 01:07:00And put the information together and write up a report, I mean. Could anything be more fun?

KK: Not in my opinion.

TF: I know. And then one project I got was it was a man doing a book on Medal of Honor winners. So, we were the government employees at the military records center at that time. .We're figuring other stuff, You do the actual work, which is great, because I I've never liked to be bored. So, I got this one job with Medal of honors. But I don’t know what they got them for. I want to know. This guy is writing this book, I wanna know physically how they received it. If it wasn't, you know, after death.

KK: If it wasn't. Posthumously. TF: Then you know, I want to know where they got it.

KK: That's fascinating. Yeah. I don't know. Yes.

TF: Right. Want to hear a great story? KK: Yes

TF: This one guy had gotten the Medal of Honor and he was living like in Fairfax, VA, so really close. And so Truman was giving out the medals. The actual medals and he was close to the White House, so they wanted me at a photo op, right? So. They contact this guy and they say you're a medal of honor winner., Can you come to the White House? You're right down the road, you know won't be an imposition. he guy goes sure. So as fate would have it, OK, they're pinning the medal on his chest and the AP takes a photo. 01:09:00And that's the photo they used to tell everybody in the newspapers all over the United States that there was a Medal of Honor ceremony at the White House. And we, we love our veterans. Right? The problem was his wife. His first wife, whom he never divorced. Was living in Montana. And she saw. It and she goes. What's he doing there with that woman? KK: Oh my god

TF: The women he was living with as his wife, He married her. So it was a big mess. Yeah was married to two women at the same time .So by law the first marriage is the legal marriage. The second marriage is not legal.

KK: That makes sense.

TF: Yeah. So he gets contacted by her and he's not telling anybody anything. He doesn't know what to do. He's hiding his head. He gets killed in an automobile accident. 01:10:00And I mean, like, right afterwards I'm reading all this stuff so then his wife's legal wife says that Medal of Honor is not going to this other woman. I'm getting it. She has no right to it. And she was right. So she shows up to get his Medal of Honor and she got it. Yeah. And she got.

KK: She got it. That is a fascinating story, and I'm sorry his first wife did she assume he died in the war then?

TF: You know, I I don't know . I'm not 100 percent sure. I don't think so. I think he was like in the movies, you know where they live these two lives. I think it was one of those.

KK: Yeah, right. The double life. Wow. The double life.

TF: The double life. Yeah, but I loved it. I and and I love being there and I love. So I I kind of thought I would go on in history. 01:11:00But then the coaching was so successful, I'm working at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado. I'm dealing with the Olympic Champions and I thought. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this and then I always thought, well, if I really want to go back and get a doctorate and I still think about it today about it. Do I still think you know, could I do that?

KK: Really. Yeah. You still have enthusiasm?

TF: I do, and I really subscribe to the belief. I mean we believe this, but we weren't the person who thought of it. But opportunity is everywhere. All you have to do Is be open to it, you know.

KK: Right.

TF: When I was young, when I was a little, I loved poetry too. When I read a lot of poetry, nut there was a, you know, this poem. 01:12:00Opportunity knocks once. That's ridiculous. That is a ridiculous way of thinking about Things, isn't it? It's everywhere. You know I. Mean. How fortunate. Here I feel like I have a friend with you and a connection. And who would have known that was going? To happen.

KK: Exactly,

TF: So what? I'm not going to come and see what happens.

KK: Yes, I I love that it makes me think, and it’s really more of a religious quote, but it's something like. You know when God closes One door he opens two others right? Something like that. I've always thought that that was a great quote because It just says, you know, Just because this didn't work out, there's so the world is full of opportunities, you know the world is full of opportunity. 01:13:00You mentioned resiliency earlier That’s what it's about. In many ways. You know, just be resilient and keep hoping that, you know, things are going to work out because if you keep working hard, I I think they will. Yeah, I agree. I think that's a wonderful philosophy. And Speaking of things that I found wonderful. I read a letter on the website for the CSP, the Clayton Shaw Park typewriters. It was I believe you retired last March, was it? And it was just a wonderful letter.

TF: Yes, it was. It was incredible. I was just like, oh, you know it. It almost makes me tear up thinking about it.

KK: I Know. Yeah. So. I just wanted to ask, you know, we've talked about it a little bit more about the work you did at, uh, with the Clayton Shaw Park tide riders and kind of what your responsibilities were, what your goals were?

TF: Well, when I took.Over the program which was in the early 70s. Well, I guess i took the program over in 74, and it was under the auspices of the City of Clayton under Department of Parks and Rec. 01:14:00OK so I worked for the city of Clayton.

KK: Right.

TF: So, as I mentioned ad nauseam, probably if the program was getting better and better, lots of kids are joining. I'm loving it. I'm hiring more people and they're saying to me, Terry, we can't afford this kind of program, You have to make a decision. You know, we're a parks and Rec team and you're out in Colorado Springs and you're out in California and you're all over the place. And we're not going to do that, so you have a decision to make, what do you Want to do? Well, the mayor of Clayton at the time, his son swam for us. Now I was coaching the more lean athletes. This was later the late 70s and his son was swimming a little. So, I just called it this day and I said, You know, I'm coming to see you not only as the mayor Clayton, but as a swim team parent and I want to talk to you about what do you see my options here being? Because as I'm seeing it, you know, if you don't want to do this.

KK: Right.

Do I have to go somewhere else to do it so he and I sat and talked for a couple of hours? It was delightful and so we came up with this idea. It was kind of a joint thing.

KK: OK.

He said, Let's ease you out of being a Department of Parks and Rec program and ease you in to being your own 501C3.

KK: OK so, That's how it went.

TF: That's how it happened, and because I couldn't take the program independent. 01:16:00Because there was no money left because it was run by the city. So I had to devise a plan that I presented to him and to the Department of Parks and Rec of how we could transition this out so the team could become financially independent and yet still keep the name, still use the facility. And Yes, still serve the community. Well, that's how it became A501C3. In order to do that legally, we had to prove that we are contributing to the community.

KK: Right, yes.

TF: And so there, that was a broadening experience as well because it started me thinking about the community and what are we doing and how are we giving back and all those kinds of things. And we wanted to expand beyond our 01:17:00Orders so. As I said, you know, as we said, very tired in March, you know over 600 swimmers, we have 10 pools that we use. We're in you know all these school district pools. Because it really is smarter for a program like ours. Not to own a pool. Well, because it's very expensive and the sunk costs are huge. Swim teams all over go broke. Do you know that more pools close in a year than open?

KK: I didn't know, but I'm not surprised.

TF: Right. Yeah. And so you kind of this is you know my kind of thinking of how I put the team together was that I'll partner with someone who needs an income. In other words, I'm going to rent your pool. That helps them to fray their cost to keep the pool open. But I'm not worried about what is the chlorine and what if the you know if something breaks? I don't have to worry about that, but the other piece of it is I didn't want children. 01:18:00To have to start early afternoon and run until late at night, so I wanted the pools in a particular time so they could come home from school. They could have dinner and early dinner and then they could go to practice whether or not they were five or they were 18. But if you have your own.

KK: Right.

TF: You have to stack.Everybody, because you can't pay to own a pool and go rent somebody else's.

KK: Right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? TF: Yeah, and it worked.

KK: I'm sure it did. It made you so much more flexible, right? When it when it came to the needs of swimmers who wanted to come. TF: And on the flexibility? And if one pool went down, you had another.

KK: Ohh yeah, that's nice.

TF: And you could share until that pool got back up and running, because what was going down all the time.

KK: Yeah, I think that was a great idea. I'm so glad that you were able to contact the mayor and work something out so that you were able to stay with the team. Cause all that. I've read it since it's been fantastic for the community. So many of what I've read from the swimmers who have gone through their head, nothing but wonderful things to say about. I was so impressed.

TF: Well, thank you. It's, yeah. It's been life. A lifetime of work and I love it.

KK: Well, it's incredibly impressive. I have to say. So you mentioned that you're married to Stan and you met when you were kids and actually and then started dating while you attended UMSL. I'm curious, did any other family members of yours end up going to UMSL.

TF: I have a niece who graduated from here. She's 39. And she graduated in. Fine Arts. OK, fine.

KK: Did you help encourage her attending UMSL ? Or maybe anybody else other than through your scholarship to actually attend UMSL?

TF: I show people all the time. I told them when I was here and I'm still telling them absolutely. Absolutely yes. Tell people they should come here.

KK: Oh right i assumed that might be the case. Yeah, that's fantastic. OK. I wanted to ask, you mentioned traveling a lot for swimming. Going to Colorado Springs, and in Palo Alto and I read on that wonderful retirement letter that they said we hope you get to travel and so do you love traveling? TF: we've traveled all over the world. We love it. Yes. And we've, we've always traveled. So we would do things like, Well, we've traveled all over, but we go for a weekend. We leave on Friday afternoon and fly out to San Francisco for two. 01:21:00And fly home on Sunday night when we when we could fit it in that anything. In fact we had a trip planned for December 16th. We were leaving for Tel Aviv.

KK: Oh, yeah, right. Ohh really? Ohh just bad timing, right? Oh, it's so beautiful there.

TF: Yes, But we'll reschedule it. So my husband really likes, Obviously swimming and he liked master swimming. So Master Swimming was founded, I think in the 70s and it was 25 And we were both competitive and he got me involved. So, we went on a great trip and we swam in.

KK: Oh, OK, yeah.

TF: Stockholm and Oslo. And Leningrad at the time. 01:22:00KK: Ohh really that's very cool.

TF: And I gave and I gave clinics to kids and adults in those countries. We loved it. And now we're still swimming many masters, but we're not competing and we love National Parka.

KK: Really. OK. You love national Parks? TF: So we've been to 250, we're trying to get all 404, I think.

KK: Wow, that's fantastic. Can you just name one specific park? that you love more or the most, if you can narrow it down to just one, I know that is extremely difficult.

TF: It's so hard. And I'll tell you the thing that I really love, I love the historic sites. I have to tell you, Vicksburg. I was shocked. At how close? The Union soilders were to the confederacy. 01:23:00The nurse and the Confederate Confederate soldiers lines were. KK: I've always been curious about Vicksburg because it has such interesting geography right there on the river. And yes, in the high ground and everything. I'm glad you brought that up. I've been interested ever since I read about it as a kid. I've pictured in of my mind is I just want to see this for myself one day. It’s not that far away. It's right. TF: Get in the car and go.No, it's right down and you'll love it. . And of course, Missouri had soldiers on both sides, so they have memorials. Yeah. And you know, for most states, they have Confederate soldiers memorial. Well, Missouri has Confederate and union. It's very cool. But I love that. But I also like the Grand Canyon and you know the Channel Islands and Acadia up in May. 01:24:00And the Everglades down in Florida. But all the civil war stuff is fascinating.

KK: Yeah, the places that have historical significance just have a little more going on. I feel the same way. So, I'm curious, while you were attending. UMSL did that make you want to go and travel and experience places like I like Leningrad or Oslo and just experience different cultures. Did UMSL encourage you to kind of go outside of your comfort zone?

TF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it sort of was an osmosis kind of thing like taking British history and taking Irish history and taking modern European history of Russia and Germany. And, you know, I mean, it's fascinating.Had go. Yeah, that's really cool. I feel the same way about places like that. 01:25:00I Very much looking forward to going there Yeah, yeah. TF: Put them on the list.

KK: All right. I was curious. Obviously, swimming is a big hobby of yours. Do you have any other big hobbies or interest, reading maybe?

TF: Ohh I love to read. I mean, I usually am one of these people that reads like five books at the same time and I pick it up to read depending on my mood.

KK: Right.

TF: You know, so like, you know, history. I'm reading. I like who-Don-its. Basically, Victorian England, because there's a whole genre of that which is very interesting. Anne Perry, who writes if you haven't read her work, you really should.

KK: Her. I I've heard the name my mom. Yes, has recommended a couple books of hers to me that I do need to read.

TF: You gotta do it because it's really interesting and she great at it. They're great stories, but I've been. I was reading Anne Perry and I also am one of these people that if I read one of your books, I'm going to. 01:26:00Read all of them. If you like one book you're like, I have to see what else this person has to offer. I'm gonna see what else, what they did and It's sort of like, I don't know what it is, but so Anne Perry. So I looked her up, Anne Perry Lived in England and she moved to Australia, so she her family, so she was uprooted and she wasn't happy about it and she was in the teenage years. So, she gets to Australia and she gets this BFF the best friend ever, right kind of thing. And then? And they were best friends and made Australia lovely. And then the best friends family decided that they were moving to New Zealand and the two girls. 01:27:00Did not want to be separated. So They killed the girl's mother. They were adolescence at the time, so they each went to well, they were in the juvenile system.

KK: Right.

TF: And they were in there for a while at separate places. They weren't together. And then when they got released.

KK: Yeah, that makes sense.

TF: Anne Perry went back to England and began writing all these whodunits and yeah, and then somebody like in 2000, if outed her, if you will, a big article on her and I don't know if who's in the times or there, but she continues to write books and do her thing.

KK: Yeah, that is so bizarre. I Had no idea hat she had that kind of dark history.

TF: me either. I know it's like I'm gonna look around because I have to look. I have to know who I'm reading and if I'm reading twenty of their books, Who are these People? So I look her up and. I find out all this information.

KK: It would make sense for such a talented author to have such a dark past though, right?

TF: Talk about resilience. Wow. Yeah. Talk about making horrible choices.

KK: No kidding.

TF: Than being able to recover from it and really make a contribution because it's the books all interweaved with Victorian England and you feel like you're in London with the urchins running around and Flying, Hawking and all of that stuff, yeah.

KK: The hawkers. That's great.

TF: Yeah, it is. It's crazy.

KK: Oh, that is fascinating. All right, I wanted to ask you a little bit about UMSL. 01:29:00To kind of piggyback off the question about other cultures where you feel like you were exposed to any new cultural ideas or forms while you're at UMSL, maybe you got to know people from backgrounds that you weren't familiar with or anything of that sort.

TF: You know, I've never really thought about it in those terms. I'm more just accepted for people where they were.

KK: OK. Yeah.

TF: So it wasn't really like, oh, this is so different or unusual. You would see people more as individuals and not really see their background. Yeah, I think and I still do that today.

KK: That makes a lot of sense.

TF: And I and I have to be careful because I really am like that, but it can be disrespectful. So, I have to be careful. 01:30:00Because you know someone's. Culture, you know, I I have to Take it seriously because it's serious For them, yes. And I want to be respectful of that. I don't want to. I certainly wouldn't be dismissive of it. But being accepting of it, can seem as if you're not taking enough notice of it. So I've learned.

KK: Right. Yeah, I think that I think that's a, you know, a thin line to walk, isn't it, it it really is. But I think that I think that's a great answer and a great way of looking at things though. I know you've kind of already answered this, but. Other than your husband, Stan, and Doctor Toohill, have you maintained any other friendships that you've formed at UMSL? Are you still friends with some people that you attended college here or professors? 01:31:00TF: No, because they're pretty much not here anymore, and professors so.

KK: Right, yeah.

TF: In the in the early 2000s, OK, Stan got a call. And they were doing kind of a fundraising or they wanted to pull people into philanthropy or something. So, they call Stan and they go We'd like to meet with you, So Stan comes in, he goes, oh, I got a call from UMSL. So, you know, they like me to come out and meet with them, and I go. So, they didn’t they didn't call me?

KK: Seriously, that's rude.

TF: I said, Are you freaking kidding me? I'm going with you. So, we come out to campus and we meet with these two gentlemen and they said, you know. We got to start private fundraising and, you know, are you all interested in kind of getting on board with anything So I told him. I said, I have two degrees. 01:32:00From here you know you need to pay attention to that, you know, and but you know, I think it was kind of a male-female thing. But what it did, was it pulled us in to advancement and development and being Involved in the university and saying, look, these are the kinds of things you don't want to overlook or minimize. You know you've got to include everybody in this.

KK: Absolutely, it's a bad look to reach out to alumni who's married to another alumni and only acknowledged that one of them is an alumni.

TF: Yes. Now, now. Now Stan defends it because he said. And I don't exactly remember it this way, but he said that both of them were really out of The School of Business. 01:33:00KK: So, they might only be looking on the list for the Business School?Yeah, I guess that’s a better way to look at it. It's more understandable.

TF: But it but it's been lovely because I'm on the Chancellors council Stan’s on the Business School, and Stans involved with mercantile library. I'm involved with College of Arts and Science. I'm involved with, you know, all the alumni association, I mean look at that. It's awesome.

KK: Yeah. And how often do you go to campus at of curiosity?

TF: I'm here all the time.

KK: You're here all the time.

TF: I'm here all the time. Love it.

KK: Very cool. Yeah. I I know that you and your husband are big fans of the Athletics on campus too, right? Are there any sports that in particular that you Really are passionate about supporting on campus.

TF: Well, we were involved with getting the study center and that was all athletes, right? And I think that's pretty reflective of how we view it. 01:34:00Love all of it. And we have a tremendous amount of respect. You know, I swim, college stands, swim a Cornell student. Athletes are near and dear to our heart because we were once athletes. But we also understand that Division 2 is really more like what Division one used to be. And now the money is so big

KK: It's so true.

TF: And you know, so we really care about supporting student athletes, not just athletes that are going to probably leave school and get a professional life.

KK: Like athletes who are just using a college as a springboard to play professional sports?

TF: Yeah, So we like them all, and the women are playing volleyball tonight and the it's the first round, the regionals of the NCAA. Yeah. Tonight at 5:00. Yeah. So I'll be back.

KK: Oh, really? Oh, it's at 5:00? Fantastic.

TF: Yeah. Although we were down at Mizzou, we watched the, play the Tennessee game.

KK: Oh, you went down to Columbia?

TF: For the Tennessee game and we had a great time.

KK: Yeah, So I live in Colombia, of course. So I Try to go to as many football games,as i can. But I love the basketball teams. I love men's and women's basketball at Mizzou. We have great programs, love the coaches we have there now and it's just so much fun.

TF: Right and the venues.

KK: Oh, I know. I love the arena. They had the old Hearn Center, which I went to when I was a kid. I was so mad at them when they got rid of that the first time I went to the new place, I was like OK this Is so cool. You know, I get it. I get why they moved on.

TF: I do too, man. I walked in there and was like, i really like this

KK: So, I wanted to ask you, do you think that college athletics is kind of a form of Community activism? Do you think that when you support the UMSL sports teams or MU, you're also supporting the community? And I don't know, encouraging. You know, for people to be enthusiastic about the community.

TF: Yes, although I never really prioritized that the priority from my end. And I think Stan wouldn't mind me speaking for him from his end has been more about enabling. Students to engage in additional activities that they love. And maybe that sort of comes from my premature exit from it, because my history is there were no scholarships, there was no financial support and though I've gone back to swimming, you know, and I've swum master swimming. 01:37:00You know, I mean there was a, It was a Sorry day to have to Let that go.

KK: I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was even. Even though it worked out well

TF: Yeah, that was hard.

KK: I'm sure that it's not a happy memory. Looking back on it or anything.

TF: We'll see. To kind of fill in the gap. When I was 13, so I had three older sisters, older brother and me. My older brother was a year. And a half older than me. And when I was 13, he was killed in a car accident, and he was a swimmer. And we swam all the time together and we were really close and Mental health at the time, was like 0 on the Richter Scale. 01:38:00KK: It was a mystery TF: It was, and it wasn't available, and nobody knew what to do. And and all these kinds of things. So when families, you know, I know now when families have these terrible traumas that occur, they generally go in one of two directions. They either rally the troops. And they get very close knit and they get closer and they have that kind of this shared experience. Another option is they get kind of blown apart.

KK: Right.

TF: And that's really what happened to us and so consequently, with that happening it took a few years to really see the toll that it took on the family. And that's why things became sort of so random, I mean, because you wouldn't think I would go away to college and then be told 3 semesters later we can't afford it anymore. 01:39:00KK: Right.

TF: But it was very disjointed and I was the last, so I was the only one home.

KK: Right. You were the youngest and it was just the death of your brother was very destabilizing, right? For the entire unit. The whole family. Yeah, I totally understand.

TF: I was the youngest, yes. Absolutely. For the entire unit. Yeah. The whole family. Yeah.

KK: Right. So I just wanted to ask you a few questions, just some more questions about your time on campus and UM, were you involved with any political demonstrations or anything while you were attending college?

TF: I when I went to Clayton High School. OK. That was during the Vietnam War.

KK: Right, right.

TF: OK. When I was a student, it was at UMSL and the Vietnam War was at the tail end. And there were demonstrations all the time. People would put black arm bands and they go sit in Shaw Park and 01:40:00Smoke pot and not me.

KK: Right. The counterculture, yeah.

TF: I wasn't there at me when everybody left class and you'd show up and there was nobody there and the teacher would go on, I would go home. What do I do? Went home. Umm, you know? I'm really not political and I mean, I have opinions about things. My biggest opinion about things is that. People need to work together. OK, this divisiveness, I mean, you look at other times in history, living in house divide, it is disaster.

KK: It is. Absolutely. Yeah. It's just I think that's a great point. You know, it's more about accepting each other and appreciating each other's differences, you know? Yeah.

TF: And really, you know, we probably agree on more than what we disagree on. And so, you find that common ground. It just doesn't need to be this contentious. 01:41:00The other fallout of this, of this divisiveness and contentiousness is that the solutions are diminished because not everybody's feeding into the solution.

KK: Yes, that's so true. When people are kept out. People are unwilling to work together or to cooperate or to make progress. You know, if you can't communicate, you can't make progress.

TF: And are you familiar with? This is a group think which was a John Kennedy when he was president. He had the what, there was that book the Best and the brightest? He put a cabinet together of all these brilliant people. Of course, but the problem was he said they were all like minded. And so, this idea of group think caused a really bad outcome in the bay of pigs

KK: The Bay of Pigs, right? Yeah, absolutely.

TF: And so, and there's a wonderful book titled The Creation of Settings and Future Societies by Saracen. And he's Seymour Saracen. And it talks about how organizations have boards. But how does someone get on the board? And often they're selected by other board members, and then when they come and they sit on the board, right, they're pressured to conform.

KK: So they have such a narrow view point, right?

TFA: And everything stays the same, so the more it changes the more it stays the same because we're just pressure and I think unfortunately I I think we're at a, you know, at a time where we need to kind of put down the, I don't even know the bayonets or whatever.

Kk: Whatever people are poking each other with on the frontline, no, I agree. I think that's a wonderful way of looking at things you know. All right, so I wanted to talk a little bit about just some final questions, some bigger questions.1st and I know that we've gone over this a bit before for sure, but what did you learn in college that changed the way you view viewed the world? Were there any fundamental beliefs that changed during your years in college? Did it make you think differently about things than maybe you did before You attended UMSL?

TF: Well, I think, I guess the biggest shift for me was the way it happened, kind of thrust me into this and so as I traveled through my college years, and as I went out in the community. I really had a strong sense of personal and community responsibility. 01:44:00And it was, I would say maybe it clarifies some of my values more. So, I care about some and placing a premium on honesty, placing a premium on.

KK: OK, right. Maybe reaffirm them?

TF: Some. And placing a premium on honesty, Acceptance, I think acceptance is one of the most challenging Tasks that we have in our life is accepting, you know, others ourselves conditions, things that we don't have control over our shortcomings, and because I think that if we are accepting, we learn a lot, we figure out how to be resilient, You know, I think if we try to ignore them or push them off or pretend they're not there. Sure, it doesn't serve us well and 01:45:00think that's sort of what I came to believe that, you know, I'm responsible for myself. I have to be responsible. Nobody has to Carry my water. If there is a class and I'm supposed to be there, I'm supposed to be there. I have a You know a How do you say that an informal contract, if you will, that I'm agreeing to be a student while you're agreeing to be a professor?

KK: Right.

TF: And so there was kind of this mutual thing. You know, I'm taking your class because you're going to teach me what I need and want to know. And I'm agreeing that I will show you what I'm learning by handing my papers in on time. Being respectful and participate, it always blows my mind, even at my age, People who don't go go to class. 01:46:00KK: Yeah, I know. Because you can't grow. Thia this will come back to a question I have to ask you in a second but you Know a lot of people they come to the university these days, especially younger people just as a stepping stone, you know, we mentioned professional athletes who only stay for a year. Well, many kids, they go, they get their degree just to get a job. But they're not, They don't buy into the idea that you can actually grow personally in college, you know, and it's such a horrible. Misconception and such a terrible missed opportunity when young people Have that mindset. TF: Yes, I really believe that. Yes. And you know, with the university as it was when I was here, you know, it was. I think it was totally, So the idea is people would run in and come to a class and leave. 01:47:00But that I didn't do that. You know, I stayed on campus and went swimming. I went to the library. I did this because of the interactions with others. The other thing is when I was little, my father was teaching me how to swim. OK, he would say Watch me. Watch how I put my hand in the water. Watch how I you stand up there and you watch me and I got this kind of visual tool. I watched how the professors behaved. I watched What they did. I was interested in them because I wanted to be like them, I didn't want to be like them. I didn’t want to be them, But I wanted to be, you know, be smart. And I wanted to be able to present things clearly. And, you know, I. 01:48:00So I would watch them and I'd watch how they carried their books and their materials. I had a class with Blanche TouHill, and she was late. And you know how students are? You know, it's like, well, you know, we're out of here.

KK: Oh, of course. Eyes start rolling. Almost immediately, you know, after a second of being late.

TF: Yeah. And so people are getting antsy. So I got up in front of the Class and I go I want to tell you about this book I'm reading and it's, you know. About England and it was about insurance and it was, it was called the Time Team. And it was 2 volumes and it was all about how Lloyds of London actually started insurance. So I'm up there and I'm, you know, saying well, this is a really great book and my husband's an insurance and I love this and yadda yadda yadda and this is how it fits in with what we're talking about. And She snuck in, and I'm up there acting like I'm the teacher. That's her. I didn't know. And then all of a sudden, I see her out of the corner of my eye and everyone like eight people in the class corner of my eye and humiliated. And so I go over to sit down. She goes. No, I want you to continue. I want you to tell me how this ends.

KK: And you didn't realize it? That's fantastic. And so did you go ahead and finish the story or synopsis?

TF: But then I go. Yeah, I was like, but this is all I know because I. Was so humiliated. Yeah.

KK: I'm sure that that's great that she that sounds wonderful. That's such a neat thing for a professor to do, you know? And I'm sure that gave you a tremendous amount of confidence, right? Yep. In your ability to act like a professor might.

TF: Oh yeah. And that's the thing. You know, and I still do it to this day, I look at people and I watch them and I think what attributes do they have that I respect. And I want to learn from and grow from and it I don't care if they're five or they're fifty-five, it doesn't matter. 01:50:00KK: You could still learn from them. Yeah, that's a fantastic mindset. So, you'd say that you're a very visual learner and always have. And as long as you can remember.

TF: I can still learn from them and Yeah, I'm definitely a visual learner, but I'm I'm pretty good, you know, with auditory as well. You know, I always liked lectures. I like to listen. To the professor And I was good at taking notes.

KK: Me too. Most people would think we're weird, but I feel the same way.

TF: Maybe we are weird, but we're like minded weirdos

KK: That's true, right? You know, we're in the Foxhole together, so yes.

TF: That's it. That's it. That's a great way to put it.

KK: All right, so I wanted to ask you, I already mentioned how you and your husband Stan helped sponsor a scholarship. How important do you think it Is to give back to the university and to encourage young people to continue their education.

TF: I think it's hugely important. 01:51:00I think it's, I think it's almost a moral responsibility now. There are different ways to give back. Not everyone has the financial capacity to create a scholarship. But you can serve on committees. You can give feedback, you can make networking and. Partnerships available with the wherever you work, so time, energy, expertise, resources. I think UMSL is so important for, I think everywhere but this community, it's vital. It's absolutely vital.

KK: I agree.

TF: And anything I can possibly do to ensure that it's here for others? I'm on board.

KK: I agree and I love how you made the point that it's not just financial contributions you can volunteer. You can donate. 01:52:00Some of this stuff, if they need an extra hand at any point, just do whatever you can to help Because this place is really worth it.

TF: And I think that philanthropy, regardless of what Avenue it is gives me back so much. All the wonderful people I've met all the stimulation. You know we have we had a student in the Honors College and she we did one of those. It was a matching. So she got a full ride four years and she graduated and went to work for Boeing because she was in the engineering program, went to work at Boeing. I ran into her. She's marvelous. Terry, Thank you so much. You know, just lovely and giving me updates on and she just got a big promotion for me and she and she'll be alright.

KK: Oh, really? That's fantastic. 01:53:00She’s told me over the years. It couldn't have happened if you all hadn't made that opportunity available and that is huge. It is so meaningful.

KK: That has to be so meaningful.

TF: Yeah, that it’s so, so meaningful. So yeah, so I encourage everybody to give. Whatever they can give. Get involved, be a part of it.

KK: I feel the same way. All right, so I have one last big question here. I want to ask you a question that I think a lot of young people are asking themselves today, and I think that we've approached this subject a little bit already, but. In your opinion, is a college education still important, and if so, do you think that UMSL is a good choice for a young person who needs an education?

TF: Absolutely. I think it's vital I think. 01:54:00if you go into the workforce. Too early. You're not ready for it. Even if you can flip for burgers. I just don't think you're ready for it. You know, there's a there's a maturity that comes with this kind of pursuit. You know, nobody's coming up to you when you're studying.

KK: Right.

TF: There is no one standing next to you for your history exam every hour on the hour and giving you $15.

KK: Right, right. Definitely not.

TF: OK, you know you're. You're doing it for like a greater. What is the word?

KK: I guess purpose, maybe.

TF: Purpose and you know it's there are things that we have to do in life that aren't monetized and things that we have to do in life that gives us time to catch up with them. You know, 01:55:00so I think the things that I learned. Yes. Career ready? Yes, I learned history. Yes, I learned Physiology. Yes, I learned counseling psychology. I learned all that stuff. But the whole time. I'm making sure that I'm disciplined. I'm making sure that I'm resilient. I'm making sure that I am compliant with the requirements. I'm making sure that I keep my mouth shut and give someone else an opportunity to participate. There are just tons of skills, They're going to make you so much better in whatever you choose to do that you gain through this process in addition to the education. The other thing is, is that when you're in college, it's kind of like swim team. It's Coeducational generally. I mean, this school is coeducational, it's diverse and it's diverse, not only in race and ethnicity, but socioeconomic status. It's diverse in terms of interest and contributions.

KK: Right. 01:56:00TF: So I mean, you just your world is enhanced by having that so People were in a hurry and I'm not sure what they're in a hurry For, because You know, God willing and the Creek don't rise. We're living longer. There is no reason. I don't see to rush out and get a job when you don't really know who you are. You don't know really anything about anybody else I went to Clayton high school and in my class, there were 150 students.

KK: Wow. Yeah, very small class. The graduating class?

Tiny, there's actually in terms of graduation, I think they were 133. They actually graduated. So you're looking at a school of 500 people. That's insular. [ 01:57:00And you know you may be in a different environment, but nonetheless it's a really known quantity. You step on this college campus and you're going to be exposed to a whole variety of things and ways of thinking. And The thing is I mentioned recurringly Is that it's done in a safe, nurturing environment so you can screw up. You can act up, but they're going to teach you how to be a better person because they're going to, they're going to say now wait a minute. Let's look at this. Let's hear from so and so you know, let's do this together. And if you have this discipline and this situation awareness then 01:58:00I think it's a tremendous value. You're gonna know how to be an engineer. I mean, she knows how to be an engineer, but she's moving up the ranks because she's got the people skills. She's got the diversity, she understands her different cultures. She understands it's not threatening, it sort of takes that away.

KK: I think that's a great point. Would you say that attending college helps you be a more conscientious person. It doesn't just prepare you for your professional life, you know, by teaching, you practice practical skills. it teaches you how to be how more conscientious, less selfish, even, TF: Yes and less self-absorbed and you know you have. You learn how you impact others and that is huge. You know, to realize that you have an impact on others. I mean, the potential is mind boggling. 01:59:00But it's also a responsibility you don't mistreat others. You just don't do that. And you know it. It that's learned because there are many environments where people don't, don't know that. Plus you're counted you know people count on you. I counted on my professors to be there. I counted them. I I was one of these people that was more nervous after I took the test because I was waiting for the grade to be put up than I was before the test.

KK: Right.

TF: But they posted it and they'd say I'm gonna post this at 2:00 on Thursday. And it was there Because I show up at 2:00 because i want to see what my grade was. That is huge. Yeah, so well, this has been delightful. Anything.

KK: This has it and I love that answer FROM you. So wonderful. Do you have anything else that you might want to share?

TF: Nothing I can really think of. I think I've probably bent your ear enough.

KK: All right. Well, thank you so much. Honestly, I could do this for another hour. I think it's been so interesting.

TF: Oh, you're welcome. I could too. You've been delightful. So good at it. Thank you.

KK: Oh really? Thank you so much. Thank you.