UMSL @ 60 - Maddy Havlick (nee Vincent)

Audio file

UMSL 60th Anniversary Alumni Interview Transcript

Interviewer: Justin King

Interviewee: Maddy Havlik (nee Vincent)

Date: 12/5/23

Duration: 1:

Transcript

Justin King: Alrighty. So I'm Justin King. Uh today is December 5th of 2023. We are conducting an interview for UMSL’s 60th anniversary. And we're interviewing. You can go ahead and say your name.

Maddy Havlik: [laughter] Sorry, Maddy Havlik, formerly Vincent.

JK: Could you spell that?

MH: Mhmm. MADDY HAVLIK.

JK: Alright let’s g o ahead and get started. So, first question is where we normally start is where were you born?

MH: I was born in St. Peters, MO, which is where I live now.

JK: Hmm. And what, what is what day were you born?

MH: I was born December 30th, 1997. New Year's Eve.

JK: And did you grow up in Saint Peters your entire life?

MH: I lived in O'Fallon for the majority of my life before I moved to Chicago, when I was eighteen.

JK: And so was your family originally from the area, or did they move in from out of town?

MH: My grandparents are from Illinois, but both of my parents were born in, um, in Missouri, they grew up in South City and they both lived in Saint Peters before they met.

JK: Hmm. And then what, what's your family's heritage? Were they in the country for a long time or were they more recent immigrants or?

MH: So, my mom’s immigrants are a little bit more recent from to Italy and Germany, and my dad's family is indigenous Lakota and German.

JK: Um, so what are the names of your parents? And where were they born?

MH: My mom's name is Angela, um, maiden name Van Horn current named Vincent, and she was born in, um, in Saint Peters. And my dad's name is Ryan Vincent. And he was born in, uh, Hazelwood.

JK: And what do they do for a living?

MH: My mom works in marketing for Magellan Health Services and my dad is a a senior vice president for U.S. Bank.

JK: And do you have any siblings?

MH: I don't. I'm an only child.

JK: Hmm. How is growing up as an only child?

MH: Weird a little bit. Most of my friends had siblings. So I was kind of always that kid who was more comfortable with adults than they were with other kids. Um, spent a lot of time around adults, since none of my mom's family members and my dad's family members had kids. So I was the only child, grandchild and great grandchild until I was fourteen.

JK: Wow, so you didn't have any cousins or much of anybody to?

MH: No, I have three cousins that are all younger than me, and then my dad's cousins that are his age. That I'm still close to.

JK: Hmm, um and then did you know your grandparents?

MH: Yep, um, my grandparents are all still alive. Um, they, my mom's parents, live like five minutes away from me. I see them all the time. Um, I don't see my dad's parents, but there's there's they're around.

JK: Um, do you know their names and what they used to do for a living?

MH: My, um, my grandma's name is Chris Van Horn, formerly Mayford. She is a secretary. She's about to retire, and my grandpa was, um, a, an architectural engineer designer for Boeing for a long time. Um and Jimmy Vincent is my dad's father. I never did. Never know him very well, but I know he was a foreman for, um, um major architectural companies he helped build the Chase downtown. And the last I knew my dad's mom, Marilyn Vincent, um, formerly Grunkel was, um like asset protection for Panera Bread, so all over the place. [laughter]

JK: So do you get to spend much time with your extended family?

MH: I used to spend more time with them than I do now, um. I spend a lot of time with my grandparents and my, um, my mom’s brother and wife and their kids who are twelve and eight. So they're still, you know still little. But I spend the most time now with my spouse’s family.

JK: And so when you were growing up, what was it like growing up out in O'Fallon?

It was pretty normal, like, there was not much that went on in O'Fallon. It was, you know, quiet. I had friends down the street. It was pretty standard. You know, your standard suburban, standard suburban life, my parents were young when they had me though, um, so I know that that sort of impacted the people I was around. Um and the time I spent with the family and everything, because they needed a little extra help, um, to work and maintain, you know, work life balance and still be able to support having a kid.

JK: So what was? What were? What were some of your friendships like or are you still friends with some of the people that you used to live next to?

MH: I'm still really good friends with somebody who lived down the street from me, but she lives in New York now. But, um we we text and whatnot. But I was friends with a lot of the people in the court right down the street from me, and we all spent a ton of time together. We were all in the same Girl Scout troop. You know, we did as kids do, run around the neighborhood, be menaces, as children will. [laughter]

JK: And so where did you, uh, go to elementary school at?

MH: I went to elementary school at Rock Creek Elementary. It was right across the street from where I lived. I went there from 3rd grade to 5th grade and I was at, um, a private school that's now closed, um, from preschool to 2nd grade.

JK: Hmm. And what was that private school?

MH: It was Willott Road Christian Academy.

JK: Hmm. And so was that pretty close to you as well?

MH: No, actually that, well it’s close to me now. It was. It's in Saint Peters. It's not very far from me at all, but it was about fifteen-twenty minutes from my house when I was young, um, and my parents sent me there, uh, because they had a pretty, you know firm curriculum for young kids. And so they sent me there to to get an educational leg up before I went to a, um, public school?

JK: And so where did you go to high school at.

MH: Went to high school at Fort Zumwalt West High School, so it was right down the road from Rock Creek Elementary and also not not far from my house.

JK: And so when when you were there, was there any subject that you like more than another or any extracurriculars that would inspire and later?

MH: So I, um, I played golf which I only played because my best friend played golf so, um, I only joined just to, you know, mess around with her and we played till we were seniors. And we never took it super seriously, but it was fun. Um, but the classes that I took that really sort of like drove home that I was going to work in academia was I took in an art history class that I loved and that’s sort of what led me to go to school for art in the long run.

JK: Hmm. And so where did you go for your undergrad?

MH: I did my undergrad at school of the Art Institute of Chicago.

JK: So how would you end up choosing that school over any other school to go to?

MH: That's a good question. So I got into KU, University of Kansas, and I visited and like it was fine. It was really big and that, that was a little scary to me. Um, and, you know, and they had a good program and everything but, you know, Chicago is kind of where it's at, like in terms of like the closest city for, you know, big art and fashion and design and everything, so. On a whim, I applied to their art history program, which, um, all the programs are interdisciplinary. So I did have to do like practical art on top of the art history stuff, um, and that as well in the application I had to write in an art history paper and do practical art to get in. But I, I got in which was wild, but it happened so [laughter] I was excited about it.

JK: Hmm. And so when when you were there, were you involved with anything, did you have any internships that you did well at that?

MH: I did. So, when I first, my freshman year I was super, super bogged down with the practical side of things because the first year they really throw a lot of practical art at you. Um, but then, as a sophomore, I, uh, I worked in the call center for a little while, which was awful. I didn't work there for very long, um, and then I was a note taker, but which I basically I got paid to just take notes and people's classes. It was, it was awesome. I loved it, um. But then I got an internship at the Field Museum of Natural History, um, doing digitization and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I missed it every day.

JK: And so what you what’d you do there on an average day, what collections would you work with?

MH: Yeah. So when I first started there, I worked with mammals only and, um, I went there twice a week when I first started and I would only be able to digitize one day because they only had one pretty large scanner, but I was digitizing their ledgers from their mammals collection so it was like all the way at the very beginning of the institution with their first mammal, which was a platypus, so I had to digitize all as many books as I could and they were massive and they were all falling apart. Um, but it was a lot of fun and I got through quite a few of them, um, in my time there, but I also on any given day, I would help you know, maintain collections. I would help put tags on specimens and write numbers on specimens like skulls of mice and bones. And it was the the most fun thing like kid me could have imagined growing up loving museums and everything, and I like I said, I still. I still think about it all the time.

JK: And so how did you get along with the other people there, uh?

MH: Well, there weren't very many people. It was pretty small, but everybody that I worked with was great. You know, really, really nerdy, which is my type of people, um, but we always had, you know, really great productive conversations about you know what's going on in the scientific world and you know what articles that people read recently and you know, what were people working on and, um, at the same time, we talked about video games and TV shows and we all had very similar interests, so it was a lot of fun to get to, you know, do this really neat professional work, but also have a really great rapport with the people you're working with.

JK: Hmm. And so [laughs] did you, how did COVID affect your last year there? [Laughter]

Well it’s yeah, but yeah, so 2020 was something. From 2019-2020 I was still work. I was still at the Field Museum. I wasn't an intern anymore. I was volunteer. They just they couldn't get rid of me. I wouldn't leave, even my through my internship ended, um, but I was working with insects and with mammals. So with mammals I was doing the exact same thing I've been doing with insects I was helping, um, at first I was inventorying fleas, which was a little while, but it was cool and then I was also helping with some, um, with some cataloging work, um, as a science changes so do taxonomic names. So, to make sure that they stayed up to date in the database system which they used K-EMU at the time, um. I would, you know, go into the system and change the taxonomic names based on the most recent updates from the science, and, um, I was also taking courses through SASICE but at the Field Museum I was taking scientific illustration classes so I was there 3-4 days a week, um, working or painting and, um, I got an internship at the Smithsonian for the summer of 2020 to do digitization of their scientific illustrations. [laughter]

JK: Oh no.

MH: Yeah, I know. So, I got the call that I got that internship March 5th of 2020

JK: oof

MH: and I know and my, my mom and my grandma came in town with my cousin to do an overnight at the Field Museum, that I'd wanted to do since I was young but I took my cousin and we did it together and it was. It was a lot of fun, but literally the next week, my mom had to come get me because they were closing the school. So that. It all just tumbled right downhill, so um I did a little bit of, um, remote work for the museum, I helped with some plant identification for a couple of months, I finished my degree, I graduated from my couch. [laughs] Um, and then after that I just kind of existed in limbo like everybody else for a little while.

JK: Hmm. So, um, did you take a little while before you started your Masters degree or?

MH: I yeah, I did. I am from. I graduated with my bachelors in May of 2020 and then I started my Masters degree in fall of 2021 so, um, I took some time to just kind of exist because I didn't really know what to do, um, with it with all of with the world. Um, you know, I, you know, um, had a couple of odd jobs here and there. I worked at a, shop you might know. What's it called? It’s always called the magic shop because I buy magic cards. [laughter] It's, uh, the Fantasy Shop. There we go. There's a few locations around, but I, I worked at the one in Saint Pete, Saint Charles for a while, and retail wasn't for me. So. And in the midst of the pandemic, I it was too much. So that's when I got into the program after that.

JK: Um, and so how, how? Why? Why did you choose to go to UMSL out of any of the other schools to go to?

MH: Primarily it was close. It was convenient. Um, but also my, my both my parents, funny enough, went to UMSL. Um, and uh, so you know, they knew the area and it was my best friend with UMSL. And so, you know, I'd spent some time on the campus and it wasn't too far and you know the program, you know, the curriculum looked for the, um, Masters of History with emphasis in museum studies. The program look good. It looked like they had, you know, options to take different types of courses, focusing on museums and, um, you know, I really wanted to be able to like delve into research a little bit more. Which I really got to do so kind of based on, you know, course descriptions and the descriptions of the requirements for the program, it seemed reasonable and seemed like a good opportunity, especially, you know, given the insanity of the world and all that.

JK: And so, um, just backtracking for one second, you graduated with a Bachelors of Arts and of Art History.

MH: Yep, Bachelors of Arts and Art History. BAAAH which is I'd rather just like say BAAH Bachelor of Arts in Art History. BAAAH, is mouthful, so.

JK: And then so you you entered the, uh, the museum studies program or did you do the two track? The the was it. So there's a there's an MHPH program is that the one that you entered?

MH: Mhmm.

JK: Okay. And So what did you what did you think of UMSL before you came to go to school here?

To be honest, I didn't really know. I only really knew what my best friend told me, which was our sorority life, basically. Which, you know, SAIC, didn't have Greek life and that wasn't anything that like I had any exposure to. But that's you know all I knew besides what my parents talked about when they were there in the 90s, so I didn't have much of a concept really. Um, I was open to whatever it could throw at me. I tried to exist byou know not having any an idea until I have an idea, you know.

JK: Hmm. And so, uh, when you when you first got there, how was your first year studies, um?

MH: It was overwhelming a little bit, especially since I've taken time off from school, um. I've always been my mom calls me a professional student because I've always been good at school, even though I don't like it. I say that, but you know, I work at a university. Um, I've I've always, um. I've always been good at you know writing papers and you know doing the seminars and all that good stuff. U, so I found it overwhelming, but at the same time like the coursework, I really, really enjoyed, I felt like. I, um, Iwrote a lot of papers which I, I like writing papers so that I was totally, totally up for it. Um, but at the same time, there was a lot of group work which. I'm not the best at working in a group. I can but I don't like it. [laughter] If I'm going to get something done, I'm going to do it on my own. That would probably be my biggest gripe about the program. There's [laughter] a lot of work, but at the same time I felt like it was useful. Um so, you know, hear the people's perspective and get different feedback and different viewpoints that I wouldn't have gotten if I'd have just done the projects on my own. So that was really my first thing was wow, I'm working with people a lot.

JK: And so what, what was campus life like, uh, was it very much of it, were you very involved?

MH: I really wasn't involved with campus life much. I, um, I don't live very close to campus, so I was really only there when I needed to be, um. Yeah, I spent some time there with for classes and I was in the Mercantile. I worked there as a GRA until I got my, my job at WashU. Pardon me, and um. I, you know, I got all the emails about stuff going on on campus and be like, oh, that seems fun. But that's forty-five minutes away from my house. So, you know, kind of a catch 22. Um, but you know, it seems like they have a lot going on and there was, you know, some lectures and everything and, um, like in the lectures, independent of courses and everything. But yeah, I didn't really spend too much like too much time doing campus life stuff. I didn't in undergrad either for that matter.

JK: And so, uh, could you sort of explain what a GRAship is compared to, like an internship?

MH: Yeah. Sure. So, um if I could compare my internship and my GRAship. My internship was more like it was an introduction to museum work. It was in, it was an introduction to the possibilities of, you know, work that is done in museums and libraries and like a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. I'll teach you how to do this if you help us with with our work. And um, so I learned a whole lot in my internship. And I, it's not that I not to say that I didn't learn in my generation because I totally did, but it was on a more intense level. It was, internships kind of baby steps. GRAship was more, okay, now you're really doing the work. Um, and I feel like I taught myself a lot in the GRAship, um, GRA stands for Graduate Research Assistant, um and so I I feel like I did a whole heck of a lot. A lot of digitization work which none of the stuff that I really did in, um, my GRAship do I do now. I mean digitization, yes, but, the scope of work is completely different based on, you know, institution, institution. It's all very different. Um, when I was at the Mercantile, I digitized a massive set of glass plate negatives from when the 1904 World's Fair was being built and after it was up and they were gorgeous, but they were not in good shape at all. They were breaking, they were flaking and I was just sitting in a cubicle trying not to ruin them, and skating them on an Epson flatbed scanner. [laughter] And you know, I do that day in and day out. And I did a lot of, um, photo digitization for the Globe Democrat, um, Newspaper, um, that's, um, no longer running, but was large, um, in Saint Louis up to gosh, like the 90s, early 2000s. Um, the, I would say the big difference is really the amount of learning you do. I feel like.

JK: Hmm. Okay, um and so um with with, um, with doing the, um, the GRAship and classes how did that balance out?

MH: Because I was able to pick my schedule, it wasn't too bad. I'm. I'm also. I'm a workhorse. I can. I'll work till I drop. I always say it's the Capricorn in me and I never mean it because it's it's silly, but um. I was on campus a lot, but only in, like certain spots I had twelve hour days where I would be in campus at, you know, 8:30 and I wouldn't get home until like 9:30 and it was a lot. It was a whole heck of a lot and I hated it. But it was it was manageable. The worst part was doing homework after you know, working all day and getting home and being like well, crap, I have stuff to do now. Um but, I feel like it immersed me a lot in the work and in you know the history which was inevitably, probably really helpful because my mind didn't really get away from school or anything it was, I was just steeped in it. That was kind of all I thought about when I was in school was school. So I will, the one thing I will say about having the, the GRAship and classes was I really had no personal life. I had no social life. It was me and my spouse, and we weren't married then, so just me and my partner and come home and I'd just sit on the couch and do homework.

JK: So, uh, were there any people who impacted you in, um, in a particular way, um, during your time at until any professors or anything, anybody else that was in the program?

MH: I made some good friends in the program. You know, they they were really great people to work with. Um, in terms of professors, uh Andrew Hurley, Doctor Andrew Hurley was. He was like the cornerstone of my time and I'm sold, um, first class I took with him was was damn hard and you know, I struggled through it and then I realized why he pushed us so hard and he ended up being my, um, my project director for my, my capstone project and I couldn't have been more grateful for him and all of his insight and input for the end of my project so. Um, yeah. I, his, him pushing me. Like, as hard as he pushed me to, you know, really dig deep in my research and really. He offered me so many, so many thoughts that I wouldn't have thought of myself. You know, so many questions. You know, why don't you think about it this way or think about it that way instead of looking at it from this perspective, look at it from this perspective and it was, it was immensely helpful and I, I wouldn't been able to do the project if he hadn't been there to to push me through it.

JK: So was there anybody else, or was he really the major one that had an influence?

MH: He was really the big one, but I, a lot. All of the people that were in my cohort, we all worked together so much, um, Levi Cullifer, we worked together a ton. Anna Matthews, we work together a lot, um, all of whom have graduated and moved on to bigger and better things at this point, um. But we all, you know, supported each other during the the hardest times, the courses and everything and you know, we were all in the same classes, so we all did the work together and you know, we had to stay sane somehow.

JK: So, uh, did did your time in the Masters program help to shape your identity or form your help to inform your sense of self while you were there?

MH: I would say in some capacity, yeah, I feel like I am, I gained a little bit more of a voice you know, in the courses I. I'm I've always been a, a little shy and awkward and, um especially like speaking out in classes I. No, you couldn't have got me to raise my hand. Ever. Even when I was in undergrad, I was horrible about it. And then I just, I didn't feel like I had anything to say. And then, you know, Masters program, I felt like I knew more. I felt like I had an educated answer, an educated response. So you know, it gave me the confidence to speak up. And, you know, raise my hand and say something. You know or when, um, I did a course with Doctor Hurley, where we did a, uh, exhibition for the Griot House Museum and that was a lot of work and you know, I felt like I could say, “hey, why don't we try this or why don't we do this?” You know, I designed all of the, the displays for it. I did all of the design work and, you know, helped to finish up all the writing and, and all that and I wouldn't have done that otherwise. You know, I wouldn't have had had the guts to say. “Hey, let me try this.” You know, if I hadn't, you know, really felt like, well, it's not going to get done if I don't say something.

JK: So, um other than the happy memories, they're usually bad memories. Is there any unpleasant experiences or anything that was very challenging, um, during your time on campus that had posed some problems for you?

MH: My GRAship was a bit of a rocky experience. Um, I didn't really get along with the person I was working for. We worked very differently and I was having a hard year just like, personally, things were difficult. Um, my partner was really sick and it was, it was a really tough time in my life, um, personally, emotionally. And so I, I, I struggled sometimes, and I, I feel I didn't get much support and I always worked like a dog, um. [laughter] You know my experience there at the library at that library versus my experience at my library now or it's night and day. Just in terms of work it's just it's completely different and I when I worked at the Mercantile, I was sort of, I wasn't led to believe that it would be that all libraries would be one way, but I was at the same time, you know. Um, and so I didn't want to work in libraries [laughter] after i was there for a while. Um, and it was, it was just a very, you're quiet very like you know, button up your sweater kind of environment and that's. I mean, look at me. I have tattoos. I have facial piercings. You know, I'm, I'm not that kind of guy. Like, I'm not that person. And so I I struggle with the environment a little bit just cause I didn't feel like I fit in and I feel like they knew I didn't fit in. And so that was, um, that was a struggle. That made working there kind of tough, but I also feel like in the long run. I'm better for it because you know I know who I am better now. I know that I should just be me no matter what, and that you know. If people don't like it, that's that's not my problem. That's not my fault. And you know everybody else, I'm still, you know, the professors and my, uh, my cohort like. I couldn't have had you know better support from them. You know at that time.And so like, you know, I knew, okay, this isn't me. This is them. Like, this isn't a me problem. This is a them problem. And it it helped me overcome it. But getting my job at WashU, um, was, probably the best thing that could have happened, um, because it really like. I was scared that I wasn't able to get a job when the program was over as, you know, as everyone is and so I, I applied early. And I applied to a lot of things, and that was the one that bit and I couldn't have said no, so you know. It all worked out in the end is the long and the short of it.

JK: So is there anything that you, uh, wish you could have experienced during your time at UMSL or, uh, that, that you passed up, that you now regret or think about what if I had done that?

MH: Umm. I don't know. I probably wish I had been a little more social. [laughter] If I had to say anything. That, you know, I would have engaged a little more with, you know, extra, uh, um, extra lectures, you know that are offered on an off campus. You know, I like those things. But when it when it was happening, I was so burnt out. All I wanted to do was go home. All I want to do is go home, sit on my couch and play video games. I didn't want anything to do with anything academic at all, at that point. Um, and looking back, you know, I feel like it would have been valuable to be able to experience those things, you know, experience them with other other people in my cohort and get to have, you know, have those conversations about those experiences but. Otherwise, you know, I feel like I tried to, you know, put as much of myself as I could into it without completely crumbling the human being. [laughter]

JK: And so, um, is there anything that you wish could have better prepared you for your job or do you feel pretty prepared as UMSL had to you?

MH: That's a really good question. Um, yeah, that's a that's a really good question, I. Professionally, I was ready 100% I. I was ready to learn more because I I thought that, you know, the setup and everything I thought was going to be very similar to, you know, my previous digitization setups. Um, I I was very wrong. I got there and, you know, they have these giant, beautiful digitization machines and I was terrified I was going to touch them and they were going to explode like I was going to ruin them the minute I tried to use them. Um, but I feel like I. It, one thing it really did help me with was being able to build good relationships with my coworkers. I love my coworkers. We're a really small group. We all work together really closely. Uhm, we're all you know, very tight knit. And you know, working in a small group at UMSL sort of prepared me to be in a work environment where, you know, it was just like four of us. It was, you know, we were all just in a room together and that was it and, um, being there for a little over a year now, I have, you know, I'm not so quite so green anymore. I kind of have my feet in the deep end at this point. Um, and I I just got promoted to a specialist. I'm not an assistant anymore, so. You know, that's, um, definitely, definitely, you know, shows that I you know, I could do it and so in the long run, you know, I think that all of the, the work and the time and the focus that I did at UMSL sort of made me ready to do it, you know, professionally in the real world. Even though I'm at another university, you know, it's like the work that we're doing is for other people. And you know, it's used in exhibitions and for research and for curators, for their classes and al different, all different types of stuff, but, uh. Yeah, I feel like I wasn't quite so scared to just do it. Because I was, I was scared to go to grad school, and then I did that. And I was like, OK, well, I did this. I can do this now.

JK: So, uh, you mentioned that you started looking early for your job, uh, in Washington University, did you? Was there a set period for your GRAship before you took that, or did you just sort of decide to quit the GRAship, and then take up the job because you were looking for a job?

MH: So I didn't quit until I had the job. I had applied for a couple different jobs and I was getting it a couple different interviews at WashU and ended up getting one before the other. Um, but I’d been looking just because for one financially I needed something that paid more. I you know, we live in a house and you know we we have bills and we needed to pay my bills. So I needed something that paid more money. Um, and I wanted something with that, with a little more, little more tooth to it. Like I need. I I needed something that challenged me. I was, I was doing all of the same stuff at at, um, in my GRAship and I, I needed something more and, so I I looked all over the country at, you know, several different places. Just, you know, throw it at the wall and see what sticks. And happened upon the, um, the application for my job at WashU, and um, applied and had three interviews before I got it and uh. I I couldn't be more thankful.

JK: Um, and so when when you, when you applied for that job were you were still taking, you were still, you were working that job before you finished your major right?

MH: Yep.

JK: And so what, what, what, what, what was that like having the job security, now that you had a job?

MH: Phew. Oh God. That relief? I can't. I can't explain the relief it was. It was so immense and I, you know, I've been talking to other people in my cohort about. You know, have you looked anywhere? Have you looked anywhere? You know, do you have any thoughts even about what you're going to do in the end? And, you know, everybody was like, I'm trying. I'm looking but. You know, especially when you're still in school. Like, where are you going to go where you going to look? And it just happened to be close enough that, that I could apply and do it and I didn't think, based on the job description I was technically qualified. But I was like, no, there's no way I'm the cynical part of me was like, no, I'm not going to get that job. It's not going to happen. And then I did. It was, it was kind of a pinch me moment because I didn't believe it at first.

JK: Hmm. Cool. Uh, let's see. So let let's move out of sort of job and school and get into some different topics so more like family, life, religion, other things. So I guess you already mentioned that you're married. So how did you meet your spouse and how did that develop and continue throughout your time at school?

MH: So, um, we met in an online group chat when I was 18. They were living in Florida. I was living here in Missouri and we just became best friends. It was so fast. It was so quick. And then all of a sudden, we'd been dating for 7 1/2 years and we were like, alright, let's get married. So, we went to Forest Park with my parents, my grandparents and their two siblings that live with us and my best friend and my dad got ordained and married us, and it was it was the perfect wedding. I couldn't have asked for anything better. It was awesome. Yeah, we got married September 13th of this year, so we haven't been married for very long.

JK: And so how, how, how would you navigate that relationship during your time at UMSL?

MH: So, we’d been, we'd been together since I had done school at SAIC. So they'd been with me through one degree and I was like, heck, what’s one more. And you know, they were really, really supportive and helped me through, you know, the nights of crying and misery when I was stressed and tired. And, um I wasn't nice sometimes I was grumpy and snippy and you know, they they were always there though and it was really beneficial to have them and I it would have been a lot harder if I didn't. But at the same time, I didn't, I didn't get to spend as much time with them as I'd like to. And you know, it's nice now. I, you know, just come home and we spend time together. But we've lived together since we've, we've lived together for like 4 1/2 years now so we'd spend a lot of time together, you know before that, but you know, having done my undergrad with us together, which was harder than doing the masters and we were together. Because they, they knew how I was with school anyway so It was like, alright, let's let's do it for two more years. [laughter]

JK: So by the time you were at UMSL this pretty you, you knew the motions of what to do and how to navigate things?

MH: Pretty much, yeah, it was a little harder. It was a little more. Uh, it was a little more intense. You know, there was a lot of nights where you know I was stuck at UMSL doing classes and, you know, uh, they would come get me because we only have one car. Uh. You know, they'd wait for me in the parking garage and, you know, come get me, walk me to the car, take me home. You know, making sure I got something to eat before I did my homework. You know, was just there to help me. Help me do it. Do whatever they whatever I needed them to.

JK: So you had a lot of support then?

MH: Yeah. And my parents are have also always been super supportive with school, um, they told me we'll pay for you to go to school if you get your masters, so, uh I did and they paid for me to go to school. But they've, you know, they've been, you know, what can we do? How can we make this easier for you? And, you know, my mom helped me find, you know, job applications. She was the one that actually found the WashU job and was like, hey, you should put this. So, uh, the thing I, I’ve had a lot of support and it was really helpful.

JK: So did your parents get a masters degree at UMSL or did they only get bachelors at UMSL?

MH: They were going for their bachelors. Neither of them actually ever were able to finish because I happened. [laughter] I was born. I don't remember what my mom was going for. My dad is getting a degree in English and the only reason I know that is because he has like a library in the basement at their house so. Um, but every every time I would get a new professor. I'd be like, hey, did you have this professor when you were there, are they still teaching? But yeah, ne they, they both. Um, neither of them finished, but then they kind of. My mom has worked at the same company since I was like three, so she's worked at Magellan for like 22 years. My dad has, um, worked his way up from at a lot of different places to where he is now, he does stuff with like app testing and software software stuff. So he sort of had those kinds of things. I don't know how he got there, but he did. You know, you ask your dad, hey, what do you do at work? And he gives you this long winded explanation. You're like, OK? Yeah, sure. I'm just gonna nod and smile.

JK: And so had anybody else gone to college before them?

MH: My, uh, grandpa had. I don't remember what his degree is and but he worked at, um, he did design at Boeing, um, and then he got uh, he got his, he finished his degree when I was little. He'd gone back to school and my uncle, my mom's brother, who's three years younger than her, has a Bachelors in Art, Masters in Teaching and then he's getting a PhD in History and his wife has a Masters in Physical Education.

JK: So we we talked about, um, what, what, what, um. How you navigated your relationship with your spouse during your time at UMSL. Uh, let's, let's shift to something else so could you talk a little bit about how your sexual orientation or identity has changed over time from when you were little to now and sort of how you got there, um, from where you started?

MH: My parents have always been really, really, you know, supportive of the LGBTQ community and everything. Since I was little, um, and when I was in high school, I was like. Yeah. OK. I don't think I'm straight and didn't really know how else to identify it. And for some reason I was scared and I don't know why. I think it was because. It was still kind of at the time in you know, the predominantly straight white suburb I was. I was scared to be made fun of for, you know, identifying as any kind of queer. You know, I kind of had, I kind of had a girlfriend. We, we were really close and really close friends and so like it didn't seem abnormal that we were, you know, we spent a lot of time together and, and everything, um. And I came out as by when I was a sophomore and then I was like, yeah, OK, but I don't really care about like physical - You know, um, what's the word? - physical attributes, yeah. Um, and so I was like, OK, maybe I'm pan. Um, and then I was. I was like, yeah, that, that's good. Like we'll we'll stick with that. That's, that seems to be generally a a pretty good identity and my my partner we're both non binary. Um, and at the time I'm I was assigned female birth. There were assigned male at birth and so we were, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend. And we were just both queer and you know, as time went on we both just became a little bit more uncomfortable with like the boyfriend girlfriend thing and like, I just kind of became uncomfortable with like gender terms in general. And so did they. And, you know, eventually I was like, yeah, I don't, really. I don't really care. Like if you're a person that like you, then cool. Like that's that's that's good. Um, and growing up in, like, having those feelings in like Chicago, because SAIC is a predominantly LGBTQ school is it was great, there was no nothing, nothing to worry about. Um, and my my family, you know, as as supportive as as anybody can be, um, you know with that king of things. And, you know, after after I came home and I've been living here for a while. And things just kind of started to get crazy in the world. People started to hate on trans, people a little bit more. Things just got a little bit more scary. And so you know at UMSL I, I start when I started at UMSL I was cheating and I was I was fine with that and then you know, as time went on, I was just so much more uncomfortable with, with she. And so I was like, OK, you know, OK, I'm gonna be a they/them and that's that. And it wasn't a it wasn't a problem, but I definitely still struggle with like in public, like outwardly presenting that way. But UMSL I wasn't, that didn't make me uncomfortable. Everybody at UMSL um though I say that, my GRAship, my pronouns weren't weren't recognized, which wasn't great. But I was, I was trying so hard not to engage with anybody negatively there I just let it go. Um, but professors and everybody else there, all everybody couldn't have been better about pronouns and everything. It was awesome. And you know now, I'm pretty comfortable with, you know, people knowing I'm non binary. You know people I'm close with and, you know, friends and everything but like in public. No. I'm just, you know, people are crazy. I'm scared how people are going to react, you know, if, you know I dress, you know, a way that's not, you know feminine because I was, you know, assigned female birth. It's weird and it's that kind of delves into, like, politics, too. You know, that's a whole other thing. Uh, but in the long run, my experience, you know, coming out as non binary and you know supporting myself that way and supporting my spouse that way, um you know. We've learned a lot and I felt like I did a lot of that learning while I was in grad school for the better and for the worse. But, overall I've I've come pretty far as person because of, you know, just living life as a trans person and not really knowing how to explain it to people, if that makes sense.

JK: Mhmm. So uh did that con… I'm guessing that contributed to some of the problems that you had during your GRAship with the people there?

MH: I just don't really feel like they saw me as a person I think. Like I was I definitely wasn't a colleague to them. You know, I wasn't involved in a lot of meetings or anything that I feel like I should have been involved in. Um, I did a lot of the work that. Looked like they just didn't have time to do and you know, they would start to teach me something and then, like, stop halfway through and then just be like, eh. [laughter] So you know it was, it was rough and I, you know, ended up talking to people that watch you, who also worked there. And they were like, yeah, yeah. That that's par for the course. Like so, you know, things go as things go, but, um, you know, in the long run. Um, life happens. Things happen for a reason. You know, things get better. Things get worse. You know, things get better in this case, but.

JK: Uh, so yes, let's move on to another topic. So, uh, when you were growing up, was your household religious, was it not?

MH: My mom was raised Catholic. My dad was raised Lutheran. Um, my mom’s parents were Catholic up until I was a little kid. Um, my Dad's mom was loosely, loosely Lutheran and my dad, like, would have to go to church sometimes, but didn't. He escaped daycare once. I mean, that says a lot. [laughter] But I went to a Christian private school, partially because my grandparents were not really Catholic anymore they were more your standard, um – was it Baptist? Standard something? Standard Christian? – um, and so I went to this Christian School, which was horrible and since they have closed, I will drag them through the mud as as deeply as I could. I went there from I was in preschool to second grade and when I was in second grade they decided it was a good idea to have a reenactment of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Guess who was Isaac? Me. So they were like here, lay down on the ground and we're gonna pretend to stab you and of course, I freaked out, as any six year old would. And the principal called my mom and was like we had an incident today and then he was like, OK, can you elaborate? And they explained it. And she was like, hold on. You're telling me you pretended to stab my child. She had a reasonable reaction, and now you're telling me there's a problem. That's not you [laughter] So yeah, I did not go to that school after second grade. My parents took me out, um, and of course I was forced into religion at that point. Um, I. In like third, forth grade, I was learning more about science and like understanding a little bit more about the world that wasn't God makes the grass grow. And my parents didn't even go to church anymore, um, because I went to school at the church, where my grandparents went. So, you know, they still went and they would try to encourage us to go but my dad was like, no, we're not going to do that. And, um, yeah, after that I, I asked my mom was like “is God real, is this is that actually a thing, or is it just something they tell us?” And inevitably, I ended up not believing in the Christian God anymore. I'm a Pagan now but it was all this kind of long winded, the church tortured me and the child emotionally. Um, and I, that's part of the reason I renounced Christianity, but at the same time I love religious art. I basically studied religious art in undergrad. It was one of my very favorites. I've read a crap ton of the Bible, you know, I know a lot about Christianity. And it's, you know, many faults and you know this, that and the other. The concept of religion is interesting to me, but, I struggle living in a society that holds it so high. And you know, I grew up around a lot of people who were, you know, hyper religious and. I wasn't, so you know. That was, you know, struggle. You know people saying, you know, where do you go to church and I’m like I don't. And, you know, making friends, ohh it was difficult sometimes, you know in, in you know O'Fallon, very white Protestant, that hat kind of deal. But you know, in the long run I am so glad I left that school, um. I didn't even remember that incident with the Abraham and Isaac story my mom told me. I was thirteen or fourteen and she was like “ you remember that, right?” I was like, “no, what do you mean?” So I, I, I completely blocked that out apparently. [laughter]

JK: Hmm. So you, you mentioned that you're Pagan. What, what, what, falls underneath that belief? Is there a particular pantheon of gods that you follow, or is it more natural? Or how would you describe it?

MH: Just so yeah, good question it's, um, a lot of people assume that it's just devil worship. It is, it is not. There's a lot of, you know, connecting with nature and connecting with yourself before you connect with anything else, but I do make it concerted effort to, like, spiritually connect to, um, just the world and you know, see if I get like any sort of anything, like a message if that makes sense. Like um, OK good example, um, a symbol for an attempt from a specific deity that is trying to like communicate with you is spiders, the appearance of spiders. And I used to hate spiders like a lot and, I just, they started popping up everywhere like they were all over my house. They would be crawling on me in public. Like they were everywhere and I was like, OK, alright, I get it. Like I you can stop now. I understand. Um, but I I ended up getting tarantulas. I have like 10 tarantulas now, so that that kind of like little, little thing ended up changing my life. But it's really just, you know, respecting the world around you and connecting with yourself on a really deep level and sort of understanding how you connect to the world rather than necessarily worshipping A deity. Cause you can like that's, that's a practice. That's not a possibility. I guess that's something I really appreciate about, like the umbrella term of Pagan is that like you can just kind of do what makes you feel right.

JK: And So what, what was it like interacting with people of different faiths or people that were Christian, that are around you? Does this raise any problems with certain members of your family?

MH: [laughter] Um, so I always have like a ton of like kitschy witch stuff around because I think it's funny. And my grandma buys it for me and I don't think she really knows [laughter] I, I identify as a Pagan or anything like that but she actively will, like, buy me little like witch signs and stuff. I don't bring it up because I know better. I I know, you know, could cause some sort of argument. Um, and like I'm like I'll talk about it with anybody. But there are certainly people around, um, Saint Peters who are very pushy about Christianity and it it does bother me. For example my spouse loves basketball. Plays a lot of basketball and, um, there's a park not far from us where there's this, you know, basketball court and a lot of their friends. And my, uh, sibling-in-laws’ friends go and play basketball and I'll go with them sometimes and just sit outside because it's nice. But they built this really nice bathroom by it recently and every time I have gone in there, there has been religious propaganda on the walls, like taped up to the walls. And I'll take it down because like, what if a kid goes in there, they don't need to see like. A stranger doesn't need to subject them to something like that like. It just. It feels inappropriate to me, you know, ever feel inappropriate if there was any sort of propaganda on the walls in any place. But you know, like pamphlets and all these, you know, really just ramblings on the walls in a public park bathroom does not feel appropriate. I'll take it down and I'll take it down to the trash can by the basketball court and I'll rip it into pieces and throw it away. And it's it's always there. It always pops up every single time. And I don't know if me taking it down is egging them on or what, but I I just want them to stop because I think it's inappropriate. [laughter] It just feels forced. Like, why, it's a public bathroom if people want to learn about religion, they can go seek it out. Like, don't make people learn about religion in the bathroom.

JK: Um, so was, uh, UMSL a pretty open community to, uh, people of different faith?

MH: Oh yeah, for sure. I took a class about modern religious history, fantastic class with, um, Doctor Laura Westhoff. It was so good. We read a lot of books about different faiths and like, like I said before, I find religion really, really interesting. And that class was great. We read some really fascinating books about, you know, different aspects of religion in the modern day and how that relates to history. And you know, everybody had a ton of different, you know input like positions of input. Um, somebody in the class was a teacher at a Catholic school and had some awesome viewpoints on some of the stuff that we had to read. And we said, um, my family is indigenous. I wrote a really meaningful paper to a, meaning meaningful to me, I meant read and wrote a meaningful paper about the impact of Catholicism and Christianity on, um, indigenous people from boarding schools.

JK: Hmm

MH: Um, and so like the ability to be able to write something pretty critical like that was was really freeing. It was a, a good experience.

JK: Hmm. Uh so, so then UMSL was a pretty open place, you'd say and that there was a lot of different people, different backgrounds that were there?

MH: For sure. Yeah, I, um, probably not as diverse as SAIC because I met people from an incredible amount of countries in this world at SAIC. Uh, I had friends from Burma who were Buddhist. I had friends from Saudi Arabia who are Muslim. I had, I had a ton of Buddhist friends, um, Catholic friends, friends from Turkey like you know they ran the gamut of, you know, different backgrounds and identities. And I feel like, um, it offered a little bit of a different perspective for sure, but you know, everybody was really respectful, which was, which was great, you know, and I had some like. UMSL, I never had any disrespect about me or my background or anything and at SAIC I had somebody questioned my indigeneity which was, it's really frustrating. Um because who, who are they to tell me? Like I I know my my ancestry. What do you mean? But yeah, UMSL was, it was really great and really, really open. I feel like everybody had the opportunity to, to be themselves without worrying about, um, how other people you know might react or whatever.

JK: Um, so you keep bringing up that, uh, you have indigenous heritage. So how does that, how does that play into your life into how you've lived and how you try to connect with that identity?

MH: I've done, I've done a lot of work with, um, like trying to figure out best practices for indigenous materials in museums and libraries because I see how, how little representation there is in a lot of places for like modern indigenous people. I have a lot of connections through social media with people who, you know, live on reservations and, and everything that you know, we're like, OK, people just think we're extinct. Like, like people don't feel like indigenous people still exist and it's, itt's a struggle. And so I, you know, I do my best to try and voice that in, you know ways, that I can, any way I can to be like hey you know people need to pay attention because this is just another way of it's, you know, it's historical genocide is just getting rid of all of the information about what really happened to Indigenous people. And, uh, there's so much whitewashing with indigenous materials and indigenous history and, um, it's become a part of myself, I really take pride in because, you know, nobody's really done that in my family. My dad. kind of but my dad didn't, wasn't able to get registered as in with his indigenous tribe when he was a child, because his mom hated his dad so much. She wouldn't take him to get him registered. Yeah, he, his dad was registered. Jimmy was registered. But my dad wasn't. And so I wasn't able to because my dad didn't get registered. Um, but so it was a point of contention in my family for a really long time because of that. So it's just something that I've, in my adult life that I've, really tried to make a positive thing. Like I've tried to, you know, do research about our family to no avail, really, because I don't really have a ton of information unfortunately. But, um, it's just something I've really tried to make a positive part of my ancestry on my dad's side. Um, because there's I don't, I didn't really them before. I didn't know my dad's family. My dad's dad's side. I knew my dad's mom's, but not my dad’s dad's side. And yeah, it's just been something that I've been kind of getting to know about myself. And it's been a really positive experience.

JK: Um, so, sum getting into sort of culture, um. What, what was, you, you said that you had quite a variety of, of different people that you met in your undergrad was that the same in your masters or were there different types of people that you met during your masters or people more of the same, similar descent and backgrounds in your masters degree.

MH: Yeah, it was not as diverse in my masters and I don't know if that was just the nature of the program. Um, um, because, you know to say that there wasn't diversity. Yes, there totally was, but, um, I just had such a diverse cultural experience when I was in Chicago that, um. It was a little. It wasn't like culture shock. It was really like kind of breathtaking in like the best way to get to meet all these people and experience all these different cultures and, you know, art and food and, um, it was a great time. And, um, I definitely like got to experience like different people's lives and, um, I'm still like, um. You know, people from, you know, small towns in Missouri and small colleges in Missouri. And you know how their experiences were compared to my Chicago big city experience that, you know, was completely different from most other colleges. I mean it was small it, it was private it, you know, no sports, no, anything like that. It was, you know, we were all just a bunch of weird art kid. [laughter] And so it was like, people who had more of the more traditional college experience and had those like, that aspect of life to bring and those experiences and, um. In any case, I always I find it refreshing to meet somebody from like a completely different background because I have to. I don't know. My experience feels weird compared to a lot of people who went to like a standard college and so UMSL was like it's a standard college. So it was a little weird, um, you know, moving from SAIC to that environment, um. But I still learned about people which you know is always, always something I enjoy.

JK: Hmm. And so does does your family have any particular traditions that they have or you have any hobbies or passions that have continued on past your experience in college and into your life now?

MH: My family's always been pretty regimented, like with holidays and you know different stuff like that. And yeah, I'm getting to experience building my own now with my spouse and their siblings that we live with and, uh. But as a kid, you know all, all holidays were always the same. You know we, OK, starting. You know the beginning of the year, Easter like it was always the exact same. We go to my grandparents house, we open Easter baskets, we have lunch, we go home. And you know, 4th of July something relatively similar, you know, we go to my grandparents house, we have fireworks, we go home. Um, Thanksgiving varied, um, quite a bit, actually, but once we got like, you know, some sort of semblance of tradition we stuck with it. And Christmas, though, Christmas has never changed. We, [laughter] we go to my mom, my grandma's my mom's mom's house. I, now me, my spouse, and my two adult siblings-in-law, we go to my mom's house at like 6:00 in the morning. [laughter] They have all the presents and the tree set up, and like it's just like it was when I was a kid. Like they have not changed that at all. And we show up, we open presents and then at 11, we go to my grandparents house and open presents. And you know, it's always been that way. And I like that sense of tradition. But at the same time, like I, you know, we're trying to build new traditions. But I don't feel like school changed that a whole lot. But what it did change for me was, like making sure that I make time to enjoy myself and enjoy things that I like. I love video games. I've always, I've been playing video games since I could hold a controller. My dad was a big video game person and so like that just translated and that's how I spend time with my spouse and, and siblings-in-law. We, we play video games together, we play board games together. And so like having that time is really important to me. And I feel like, you know, just spending time with people feels a little bit more important to me now that I actually have the time, because when I didn't, it was just like. OK, well if I have time, but now it's no I need to make time. I'm going to make time to spend time with the people that matter. You know, it's not all just work and school like I need to live as a human being and have emotional connections with people.

JK: Hmm. So school has made you cherish things a little bit more?

MH: Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

JK: Mhmm. Okay. And then these two are sort of going to go hand in hand, so it's about politics, ethics, mores, so when you were UMSL were there any other, any political activities that you noticed going on campus or activism that was on campus?

MH: On campus? Um, you know, I I don't know. I I know that. Like part of our, um, like community course like museums and communities course was us creating this community exhibition for, um, a predominantly African American area and a predominantly African American museum. And you know that in some way for all of us was, was sort of an act of activism and, you know, making marginalized voices heard. And, you know, bringing this community together to have these, you know, powerful memories through, um, these objects and these different people we highlighted, um, in different areas we highlighted, um. And that was something that we were all, we were all in pretty, you know, deeply involved in that for a while. Um, knew, and then after that we you know had some connection with those people and you know they would. There was somebody in one of in in that course who was from that neighborhood and had, you know, a mass amount of connections with these people. And so it was really important for all of us that we represented them in the best way that we could and that we were able to do them justice and make them proud, um, and we did and it they felt really great to do that for them, um. In, in the long run, I think that was like the most, the biggest thing that I I noticed and I I know there was. There’s always, you know, little charity events and stuff going on, blood drives that, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't know if there was anything else like glaring that I noticed I was. You know in the program I was so tunneled. I was so focused on, OK, this is this is this like I can't look at anything else. I just have to do this one thing. Um, but now I'm, um, I'm involved with a couple of prison reform groups, uh, in my professional life, um, that I don't think I would have been able to find, you know, an academic. I actually, I did meet one of them at an academic conference, but in any case. I I think there should be. You know, I think it should be a little bit more open and obvious that like, hey, we do these things here. We do these, you know, activist things to help communities and everything. Um, just beyond, you know, MHPH because we did, we did what we could.

JK: And so, um, besides things on it on campus, in your own life, have your views on politics and on activism stayed pretty consistent or has there been changes overtime?

MH: I've always been left-leaning my my parents are very left-leaning and that just kind of continued in in me and, it, if anything I've only gotten, you know, stronger left-leaning views as I've aged, and you know, experienced, you know, different places and, um, know different kinds of people and different. Just think, just experience life and, um. Uh, I'm I'm passionate about about prison reform because you know the people that, you know, don't get to live as people. Um, so that's something that I'm, you know, I'm getting involved in now. But it's it's something I've always felt was important. That was just that kind of felt the wayside. I mean, a lot of things do and I've like never had a right leaning thought in my entire life. Neither is my spouse or my siblings, my siblings-in-law. Um, we're all pretty, we're all pretty, pretty left-leaning if I can. I I don't know how, if I could stress that any further. [laughter] But it it's that's, politics are important to us in the way that, um, we just want the world to get better, not worse. Do we want, you know, trans kids to have more opportunities because, you know, we we didn't realize that we were trans until we were older and like knowing what people, what kids go through, you know, in Texas and Florida. And like all those states, like how… I'm going to get on a tangent if I don't pause but, um yeah. Equity, it's just like, you know, making things, you know, reasonably equal because it's it's so unreasonable at this point but. Um, we just want things to be good for everybody. You know everybody to have an opportunity to be a human being that has, you know, food, clothing, shelter rights. Um, all of those things and those, that's always been important to me. And as I've gotten older, I've realized, how much, how little is done and how hard it is to to, you know, make a big impact just as one person. But you know any little bit that can be done is important.

JK: So what would you say then, uh, during your time in college and, and learning in college, did that help to strengthen your views or to help find new ways to express your views?

MH: Yeah, for sure. In art, school was a big one, you know, being able to express, you know, political thoughts through art and, you know, visuals and, you know, it was 2016. That was a pretty tumultuous time in politics. And you know, there was so much, there was so much art being made about, you know, these, you know, being angry about politics and, you know, voicing it. And somebody that I went to school with made a giant paper mache of Trump as a baby and carried around in the protests. So there was this giant Trump baby going through the streets of Chicago like, you know. [laughter] And it was, it was awesome and you know, you know, people see art and it clicks a little more because you know, it's not just words. You know when you see a visual of something, it's a little bit more impactful and so that was that was a big thing for, for me, for all of us, I think at that time. And then, um, with my masters that it was, it was really great to be able to make that exhibition that was really like we made something for people, that they, you know, appreciated and enjoyed and that was representative of, you know how the community should be viewed and like, you know, positively and not, you know, just as a now kind of decrepit community is wonderful as all those people are. And it's just not cared for by the city. And it's really, really terrible, unfortunate. And so, I think I learned about not only how to express my views and thoughts and feelings better, but also like that I need to pay attention more because it's all like, you know, inequity is everywhere. And you can see it anywhere and you just you need to pay a little more attention, because it's it's a privilege to get to avoid it, but you need to be able. You need to pay attention to make a difference.

JK: So uh, were there, were there any areas where your beliefs where ever pushed back on or even challenged, either in your workplace or out in public, um, that you would say or do you would you say that you've had you've been unchallenged in those regards?

MH: Social media that, I mean that. I'm, I'm kind of vocal on social media. I'm, I'm, I'm in some groups that you know challenge inappropriate political points or, you know, watch out for um, like misinformation and I've, some of the comments that people have left at me are just like if you OK say to my face like do you have the guts to say it to my face just like you have the guts to type it? And it's it's stupid stuff too, like. You know you, you say, um. You give a point your counterpoint to somebody's post and then they just like comment back at you a a slur about you being queer. Like, what does that do? What does that do for you? What, does that make you feel better about your, your ignorance? Like I don't understand and it's it's frustrating because I know they they would never say that to me to my face. But, um, during COVID that was a bit of a, you know, masking around here was, was something. Um, you know we go in to a store and wear a mask and you know, we'd get yelled at. And people are just rude for, you know, health and safety, which shouldn't be a political thing. But that's, again, that's neither here nor there at this point in existence, but like that was something like my parents got yelled at and we got yelled at. I had some lady threaten to beat me up in a parking lot, like I. I don't, I don't understand. It's, It's the, It's the reaction with the violence and like hurtful words that I don't get, like, use your brain, don't just attack somebody, use, use logical thoughts and explain to me why you think I'm wrong. Don't just jab at me, because that's not doing you any favors like you just look stupid. [laughter] But like, yeah, that's, it's just the reactions with stupidity that you know I I get. I got tattoos young, this is this seems like a weird segue but, I was 17 when I got my first tattoo and it's large. And I I looked young, you know, and I'd be out with my parents and somebody would be like “why, why you, why would you let your kid do that?” Like I'm not your child. Like what, what do you what do you think you're doing by telling my mom that she shouldn't have let me get a tattoo? Like I clearly I I don't regret it and I wasn't going to it was clearly a calculated decision, but, like it's just, it's the gall. It's the, [laughter] it’s the audacity that people in public have or people online have that it's. It's ridiculous in the long run and you know, I if I combat something, I try to be respectful. You know, and, you know, be smart about it, but when people react with stupidity, like what? What are you going to do? Like, I don't understand how to react to that because I don't want to stoop to your level and look dumb because I yelled back. But at the same time, you're not gonna listen to anything I'm saying so it. I just, I do my best to avoid it in public, but online I won't hold back [laughter] because you're just going to you're going to make yourself look dumb.

JK: Um, and then so besides sort of values, are there any habits that you've picked up over time that you've either picked up in college or that, um, have stayed with you through your life, um, that are sort of, and how you deal with things or and how you approach, um, certain topics or certain issues?

MH: I used to be a lot more inflammatory than I am now. I used to have a heck of a temper. Um, and I I'm going to be completely honest. The reason my temper is better is because I'm on medication to help with my anxiety and my depression, which I started when I was when I was getting my masters. So it pushed me to the point that I needed help and so I got help and now I'm a lot better for it but. Habits, I mean. I I deal with things a lot better than I did before. You know, I'm a little more calculated. I'm a little more patient. My patience has gotten better because I used to have awful patience. I had none. I have some now. And I feel like it's true. I feel like it's because I had to work with other people more. So I've had to learn how to, how to be patient and how to you know, wait for somebody else to, you know, have their thoughts and their contributions before I just said. Screw it. I'll do it myself. And, um, which has been me my whole life, and it's gotten a lot better now that I've, you know, had the opportunity to really work with people and really understand how other people work. Yeah, I I used to be real feisty and I'm still feisty when I need to be but I'm I'm definitely a lot more calm than I than I was in the past and I think that's just because. You know, I've experienced adversity and come through it in, you know, many different ways and just being inflammatory about it doesn't get you anywhere. And I it's just kind of, It's just falling off for me for the most part. Now I really only get like grumpy when I lose in the game, I’m a sore loser. But that's, that's not related [laughter] to my my normal life.

JK: Alright. So we're sort of coming up on the end here.

MH: Okay.

JK: Um, so is there anything else that you'd like to share about your experience on UMSL's campus or in life, getting a career or anything that really hasn't been mentioned already?

MH: I think one of the biggest experience, like one of the biggest things that happened to me when I was in school, was getting my job. And I don't like I, I know some people in my cohort have gotten have gotten jobs and have you know been able to work at really great places. But, when I was in my last semester of my degree at UMSL, we talked with some other, uh, museum professionals who work in the area or that, um, the other professors knew, and who could sort of give some insight to, um, us, as we started to develop our careers, and at that time I was the only one that had a job and who, you know, kind of knew where they were going. And some of them spoke about that they, you know, you know, got their MLAS or got a museum studies degree and then couldn't get a job for a couple of years. And like, I hated that. Like, just thinking about that hurt me a lot because all I've ever wanted to do was, you know, work with old things and work in a museum or library like. That's been a, a huge passion for me since I was young, um, and so yeah. If there's anything that I could really say it's, you know don't be scared, you know, just do it. What's the worst thing that's gonna happen? Somebody's going to say no and you're going to move on, you know, if you want to do something, just do it because that's what I did and it worked out, you know in the best way possible for me.

JK: So would you also encourage people to start seeking out things a little bit sooner and to look for things like you did?

MH: I would. Even if you're just looking at job descriptions, because that's really important because you can sort of see terminology that you should look for when you know you're learning, because if you see a program that you're able to learn beforehand, and then you apply to a job, and then you have that extra experience, somebody else might not have. You know always, you know, look at things, look at job descriptions, look at applications. You know, prepare yourself even if you're not ready to to go for a job immediately by looking at what people are expecting or looking for, then you kind of can understand where people are going with, you know, these jobs and what kind of jobs are available in one institution that might be available in another one. So you can sort of get an idea about where you can go, even if you're not ready to take that jump.

JK: And so, was most of this job searching that you did was most of this your own personal work or did you have help from UMSL or anybody else?

MH: I did it all on my own. Um, I interviewed for a job at the Field Museum, actually and I sent my application in and then somebody who was my super, one of my supervisors when I worked there emailed me was like, Oh my God, I saw you applied for this like please interview. And I did, and somebody else had just a little bit more experience in something else than me so I didn't get it, which you know happens. I was upset but, you know, it happens. And I talked to my supervisor after that and she was. I would have hired you. They wanted somebody else with, you know, XYZ experience that you didn't have as much of. But she was like, but you interviewed beautifully. And you know, that was a boost in my confidence because you know somebody that you know, I knew. And who was wonderful when I worked for her at the museum. She was like, so encouraging. And, you know, having somebody in your like, professional life like boost, you like that was really was really encouraging.

JK: Hmm. Alright. And so is there anything else about your time as a student or anything else, or is that about it?

MH: Um, I can't really think of anything else super big that I haven't mentioned.

JK: Hmm. Alrighty.

MH: Oh, um, I do now work with an UMSL GRA student, which is funny. It's a whole, it's a whole loop. Um yeah, one of the UMSL students works with us and fits right in. So, [laughter] it's it's a lot of fun like, you know, seeing that circle, you know. But yeah. It's been a been a wild ride. [laughter]

JK: Uh so I suppose that is really about all that I have, um, so I want to thank you for interviewing and agreeing to do this and yeah. Alright, well.