MMF
Did you hear the “Recording In Progress” prompt?
JDM
All set.
MMF
All right. Excellent. So we'll just do a brief introduction. My name is Miriam
Ferko, and you are Julie Dunn-Morton. And we're doing an oral history interview for the “UMSL at 60” project. And if you could just open with a brief little sort of biographical sketch about yourself, your connection to Saint Louis and the institution. And then we can go ahead, forward from there.JDM
OK, my name is Julie Dunn-Morton. I was actually born in St. Charles, Missouri,
and grew up there. I’m currently the curator of Fine Art collections at the Mercantile Library. It was a bit of a long road getting there. Spent four years in the Air Force right out of high school, mostly because I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do, and then got married, then had three children, got divorced, came back to Saint Charles, had just enough time on the [Montgomery] GI Bill to finish some degree. I had started taking some accounting classes. I found I was really good at accounting and bookkeeping, just really didn't like it, so I made the decision that I’d rather go with a career where I would love going to work even if I didn't make quite as much money, because I knew I could make a lot more money as a bookkeeper. But that wasn't the lesson I wanted to share with my children. So I went for art history, graduated from UMSL in 1987 with a BA in Art History. Sadly, that Art History degree is no longer available. I worked for a while, got some other experiences, waited until my kids got a little bit older and then went to the University of Delaware in, let's see, 2002 I guess. No, 1992. Sorry. You'll have to cut some of that out anyway. I graduated with my master’s from the University of Delaware and my doctorate in 2005. And both in American art. I kind of specialized in Saint Louis subjects because was always my goal to move back to Saint Louis. My family was still here, so I got really fortunate that the Mercantile [Library] established a position for an art curator just about the time I was looking for jobs. So that worked out very well. And I've been here [at the Mercantile Library] since 2002 and. It's been a good a really good job.MMF
That's awesome. So...where did your where did your children end up?
00:01:00JDM
One thing I didn't consider was their ages when I moved to Delaware, and so they
all sort of launched from Delaware. And I have, my oldest is now a photographer in Boston. My middle child, Rebecca, is a senior publicist for Saint Martin's Press in New York.MMF
Okay.
JDM
And my youngest, Matthew, married a woman from Canada and still lives in
Kingston with his two children.MMF
So the connection to Saint Louis is kind of your connection and not necessarily
for the sake of [your children]…JDM
Yes, I came back for my parents who were still here at the time. My sister and
brother still live here, so definitely family ties still in the Saint Charles area.MMF
There's been a lot of development in that part of town lately. What was the kind
of Saint Charles St. Louis dynamic sort of like at the time you were growing up versus now, and how did that affect coming back to UMSL?JDM
Yeah, it felt very different, even when I came back from the service [in the Air
Force]. The house that I was that my parents lived in when I was born was actually an unincorporated St. Charles, which is now like in the heart of the city of Saint Charles. So just the way St. Charles itself has grown, I know there were, there was quite a long period when Saint Charles County was, I think one of the fastest growing counties in the country. So it's, it's just immensely different even now from when it was when I moved back and it, it was almost unrecognizable to me when I moved back. So my parents: we were not museum people. I'm the first of my family to actually have a college degree. Luckily, I mean some of my cousins have since then. But you know, my parents and their siblings were not really “college people.” 00:02:00So it was kind of a surprise, I think, to my parents that I was all about art and museums and didn't really—I didn't actually go to a museum until I was in high school. And we had a field trip and then it was just like, “Whoa, this is great! This is what I want to do.” 00:03:00MMF
What was the museum?
JDM
Actually, the first museum I went to was the Metropolitan Museum in New York,
because it was my class trip to New York and Washington, DC. And then when I got back, I thought, “I know there's museums around here!” I think the only time my parents went to Saint Louis, it was really just my mother. She grew up in Ferguson, and she and her sisters would always go to see the Famous-Barr Christmas Windows, downtown Saint Louis. It's like the one time you went downtown. So that was the extent of their interaction with Saint Louis. But now when you, you know, the people who work here live in all different parts of the city and county, and you know, there's just so much of more, I think, connectivity between Saint Charles City and County and Saint Louis City and County, much more fluid, I think. And I think that's kind of illustrated in things like, you know, whether Saint Louis, Saint Charles County should be paying into the Zoo-Museum district. I mean, there's been all these various discussions because the the audience is clearly more than just the county, I think... that helps.MMF
Yeah, that's yeah, that's sort of where my mind went. Because, you know, it's
sort of part of Saint Louis history. You know, the museums. And so I was gonna ask: so your first museum experience was the Met in New York. And so then presumably you came back to Saint Louis. And so then, like, how did you, how did you feel that the museum culture here was different or similar?JDM
Well, I I. Felt like the Saint Louis Art Museum held its own. In terms of a
first-time, very small-town, you know, inexperienced museum visitor, I was equally impressed with the Saint Louis Art Museum. There were just some of the artwork there, like there were these, John Singleton Copley portraits that just made me sort of love American art. The neoclassical sculpture there is—yeah. That's what really kind of hooked me.MMF
Did we have the Max Beckmann collection back then?
JDM
Uh, yes. The Beckmanns were upstairs at that point, yeah. Not my favorite.
That's OK.MMF
Yeah...I had a German and classics background and had very...And so that's, you
know what I gravitated towards, but different people are different.JDM
Yeah, it actually was interesting when I spent some time in that gallery. Just
mentally connecting it with the German Renaissance and just...all German painting of my experience is so angst-ridden! You know, it's just I mean. Other than the German Romantics, you know. Which is the opposite side of that. 00:04:00 MMFI was gonna say, you got Casper, I mean.
JDM
Casper David Friedrich! Of course you know, that's that's the the ideal.
MMF
I guess some [Albrecht] Dürer is angsty.
JDM
Yeah, there's, I mean, German medieval. I mean, the crucifix. There's this
mental image I have of this crucifixion sculpture, German. And it's just, it's so torturous to...MMF
Was it the one at that...Is it the one at the leprosy hospital? Is that the one?
JDM
Could be. I'm just, I'm not remembering the location, but just. Yeah. When they
want to be painful, they can really do painful, you know, I mean, when that's the goal, they really get there. So you feel the historical pain of these people, but. Yeah, I could just see that continuity in Beckmann. Just a lot of strong emotion. You know, just putting it out there. You’ve got to give him that.MMF
Yeah. So I didn't mean to derail from your narrative, but so you mentioned that.
So you grew up in Saint Charles, you said it was very sort of small-town rural atmosphere and you had three siblings? 00:05:00 JDMYes, I have two sisters and a brother. And my dad was in construction. Mom
basically didn't work until we were older. And in school when I was twelve, my dad built our house, which was a great experience for me. He and his friends every weekend would come and work on the house until it was done. And actually they lived there until they both passed away. So when my mom passed away in 2015, a bit of an emotional train ride to clean out and sell that house. Yeah. We talked about a lot of different options. My, my one sister and one brother is still alive. And it was like, could somebody buy it? Would it make any sense for somebody to buy it? You know, there's just a lot of questions to deal with. So in the end, it was better, you know, you just, I've reached a point with a lot of...I guess my philosophy of “things” is that, “It's time for it to be special to someone else.” You know, it just: it was there and we had all these memories, but it wasn't special to us in that way anymore. So. So that's how we looked at that. Yeah. And at that point? I was living over here closer to work, which is lovely short commute, which I appreciate every work day. Let's see. I've wandered off. What was the question?MMF
Well, I was gearing up to ask, to just get your parents and siblings names on record.
00:06:00JDM
Oh, sure. My parents, Jack Dunn and Bernette Dunn, B-E-R-N-E-T-T-E, because
nobody knows how to spell that. My siblings oldest was Cathy with a C. Next was Jack, then me, then my younger sister Margaret, and she passed away in 2012.MMF
I’m sorry to hear that. What kind of fields did they get involved in?
JDM
Let's see. Kathy was actually in advertising, and like the office manager
positions with advertising firms. Jack has been a long-time employee and soon to be retiree of Boeing. And my younger sister Margaret has been in medical office support for her most of her career had more variety than most. She was a [1m] officer for a while.MMF
OK so. So as you were saying like it really, you know, the art focus was really
sort of distinctive. Was your family supportive? Intrigued? Was it just another thing to do or, you know, but, you know, by that time you were on your own. So was it just sort of not really their business, or...?JDM
Yeah, I remember they were supportive. I loved to draw and paint. I'm, you know,
a weekend painter. But even as a child, I love to do that. And they did give me art supplies. You know, they thought it was a good hobby. But in retrospect, I realized that they were children of the Depression. You know, you needed a serious job, you needed benefits. You know, this was—you couldn't be frivolous about a life choice like that. And I think that's part of why I went into the service. I had several friends in high school who were looking into branches of the military. And in fact, a woman that I went to high school with. Was the first woman signalman in the Navy like on a ship. And her parents flipped.MMF
What was her name?
JDM
I knew you would ask me that, and I can't remember. It was Nancy something.
MMF
I think I had to learn about her for an exam!
JDM
[Laughter] That’s great!
MMF
Yeah. I can't remember it either, unfortunately, but.
00:07:00JDM
Glass ceiling breaker! Yeah. Yeah. Her parents were not excited, but she did
fine. But so I just, you know, I looked into that and I thought, you took the tests for the army and the Air Force—or the Navy and the Air Force. And just the nature of the questions on the Air Force test. I felt like that was, I don't know, better suited for me and. I did well and—MMF
This this would have been what year roughly then?
JDM
Let's see. It graduated in ‘73, so 70... late ‘72 probably, I was testing. So
yeah, I did well, and the recruiter called me. And “Let's get you in.” So I think I started by leaving Air Force brochures laying around the living room, hoping my parents would kind of get a hint because they didn't know I was doing this so.MMF
And you’re enlisting, right?
JDM
Right. So we had a talk and they were a little, you know, upset. Nobody had
really moved out. You know, I siblings at that point, Jack, I think had an apartment with a friend. Cathy had an apartment of her own, but nobody is really moving away. I was probably the quietest of the four children, so this was a real shock to them that I would move away. So it was kind of a shock for me. I was a very timid, introverted person, still an introvert, but I have learned to live in the real world and talk to people. So yeah, it was an excellent experience. I mean it kind of makes you grow up, figure things out, figure out who you are. What you want to do.MMF
I found that too, frankly, and I think so. So I'm actually at my
brother-in-law's house right now and uh, he found out too in the Air Force, and we're at Dayton right now because because he’s stationed at Wright-Patt[erson Air Force Base]. But yeah, I found something very similar in the Navy and with the people I served and serve with. I'm still in the Reserves, so. So, the Air Force, you know, especially as a woman in in the Seventies, right. Was that—were there service members in your family, was it was through high school? You know, was there a recruiting presence at your high school or, just sort of walk into a recruiter’s office one day? Before the leaving of the brochures, what’s the story? 00:08:00 JDMWell, there were. We did have a recruiter presentation at the high school and
several of my mom’s, brothers andmy dad's one brother had been in the military. My dad had a medical condition, so he was never recruited or—what's the word?MMF
Inducted?
00:09:00 JDMYou know, when you have to—
MMF
Drafted.
JDM
Drafted. Thank you.
MMF
So they would have been in World War Two, or Korea, or...?
JDM
Let’s see, my mom’s older brother...World War Two.
MMF
OK.
JDM
Yeah, I have some great photos of him. I seem to be the recipient of all family
photos, which...MMF
I think that counts as support.
JDM
[Laughter] Maybe! Yeah. So I think they weren't. I think it was just the idea of
a woman in the military and just the idea of me leaving home because I just, I think it's probably the last one they thought would do something like, goofy like that and just take off. But you know, I took them into the [recruiting station]. Mom went in and met the recruiter and talked to him and, you know, got all the reassurances that they need. And then they were OK. I mean, at that point, I was over 18, so it I could do it whether they wanted me to or not. But of course, I wanted them to feel good about it. And that was—the woman in the man's field was really mom’s concern. “Who's gonna look out for my little girl?” and, you know.MMF
What was your MOS [Military Occupational Specialty]?
JDM
It's out of date now. Actually, it was out of date shortly after I got out, but
I was a radar operator.MMF
Yeah, OK. Yeah.
0:
00:10:00 JDMSo my first assignment was in North Dakota. Which I still remember.
MMF
Grand Forks?
JDM
No. Fortuna Air Force Base was our support base and we were in the corner of
Montana, North Dakota and Canada like in the corner.MMF
OK. So not an active social life.
JDM
Yeah. Fortuna, the town, had three churches and a gas station and about six
houses. And our mail came through a base in Montana, which was actually the next closest town. So it was crazy. I still remember. And when I started learning, we created the radar picture manually. So we stood behind a plexiglass board with the map on it, with a grease pencil in one hand and the rag here and our headphones on, and we would get locations and we would manually draw them and print backwards so that the radar guys, the controllers could read it from the front. So we spent a lot of time learning to print backwards, which was kind of fun actually, but I still remember when we were all waiting for assignments and this Tech Sergeant [Technical Sergeant] came in and starts handing them out. And he says, “Dunn?” “Sir?” Pardon my language—”Who did you piss off?” And I was like, “Um, I don't know?” He's like, “You're going to North Dakota!” So it was crazy. There was one woman there when I arrived. It was quite a small base. She was from New York. She was insane. She's just this crazy person.MMF
Probably not thrilled to be there.
JDM
Yeah. Yeah, she was from Brooklyn. And if I, from Saint Louis was, you know,
from Saint Charles, was feeling like this [Fortuna] was kind of a dull place, I can't imagine what a young woman from Brooklyn was thinking of this place, you know. She was starved for attention. And most of the well, in fact, all the guys—the class that I was in for this training was like the sixth class that had women. So we were brand new in the field, and so the job involved working in a radar tower, operating the radar equipment, making sure that, you know, it was feeding into the overall system properly. But it was a 24-hour job. So we were working night and after day shifts.MMF
All three shifts.
00:11:00JDM
Yeah. And so these women. The wives are not really happy that these young women
were sitting at a radar screen next to their husband all night, in a dark building, when it's just the two of us, you know? So Helen, the young woman from New York who was like, I think, just “feisty,” is the word that comes to mind for her. And a little bit crazy. Like I said, she would sit there at the radar desk at night and do her nails. And I'm like, “Helen, can you just not do that on the job? OK, like, cause what you do—people see you doing that and they think I'm that way. OK. I'd like to get promoted. Like maybe you don't care, but I would like to get promoted and get out of here!” So yeah.MMF
I’ve had similar conversations, however many years later...
JDM
Yeah. So I figured it was in my best interest to get to know the wives. And I
knew how to cook. I knew how to bake. I knew what housekeeping was about. Helen didn't know those things. Helen read fashion magazines and did her nails. You know, that was her life. They had taken, like—they had three barracks buildings and they took the one in the middle that was shortest and put a door at the top of the stairs. And an oven in the landing like a range. Which had not been there before, apparently. But because women were going to live there, they thought we'd like to have a stove. I was like, “OK, board, you know I'm sure Mrs. Cleaver's gonna really appreciate that stove!”MMF
Did men and women both use it?
JDM
Actually the guys did use it.
MMF
I was going to say, I'm sure everyone appreciated it! But at the same time...
JDM
[Laughter] Yeah, “let's make sure the girls are happy.” So yeah, we had our own
hallway that, you know, the men weren't supposed to go in. Yeah. So I got to know the wives. I made some good friends. They began to feel a little more comfortable, you know, that I wasn’t some husband-stealing floozy and it was going to be OK.MMF
You think that I mean—so the males in your chain of command, how did they act?
00:12:00 JDMGenerally OK. There was. Interestingly, there was only one guy who actually made
a pass at me. When we were working there alone at night and it was kind of sleazy because I was like, really good friends with his wife. So I just had to, you know, you put a stop to that and say. “That one time I'm going to let it pass. Anything you say after, another word, I'm going to her. And it's all over but the crying. So you decide.” So that was the end of that. My supervisor. Master Sergeant, you know, probably pretty close to retirement. In retrospect, he's just very paternal. You know, but fair. I mean, it was basically like he was kind of—I felt like if anything had happened, he'd have my back, you know. The second or third day that I was there, when I finished on my in-processing and just really getting into the job and on the job training, somebody said, “Oh, well, the the new person always makes coffee.” I'm thinking, especially when the new person is a girl. No, I don't drink coffe. And so I just said, “You know, I don't drink it. I've never made it, so I can't guarantee it's going to be good.” He's like, “Oh, well, whatever, you can make coffee. Everybody can make coffee.” And I thought, I don't drink this. I'm not making this. So I put some salt. So of course it tasted terrible and they were like, “What did you do to this?” It's like, “I just made coffee.” “So don't touch the coffee machine!” So that was it. I never had to make coffee. 00:13:00 MMFDid you ever see men make coffee?
JDM
Yes, they actually did.
MMF
OK. Well, there you go. So.
JDM
Yeah. And they just wanted to shove it off on to, and maybe they did always
shove it off on to the new person, but this new person wasn't gonna make coffee, so. 00:14:00 MMFI'd say overall it, I mean, you know it had ups and downs, but overall would you
say your service was a positive experience, or...? It sounds like it, but...JDM
It was, yeah, I would say it was. As I said, it kind of put me into some
positions after North Dakota. Because it's considered kind of isolated, you get preferential choices coming out of there. So I had been at at one of the region support sites and so I chose to go to a region Control Center, kind of see the other side of the air picture that that I was trying to build with at the radar site. And there was a Tech Sergeant who came in who was my replacement. And he kept saying, “You know, you got my orders.” [I replied] “I was delayed leaving here and so they—my name is on them. They're my orders. You know, maybe you wanted to go to Seattle, but you're not. I am. So you know, go talk to HR if you have any problems.” So my next assignment was Tacoma Air Force Base in near Seattle, WA. This is very—jMMF
Tech Sergeant. That means So what range?
JDM
Ohh I wasn't—oh, He outranked me. Yeah. And then, like, he thought he could just
come in and do it. 00:15:00MMF
Oh, OK. What rank were you when you left?
JDM
So UM. Yeah, that was a good assignment. Seattle area was great. I met a woman,
I'm still close friends with her. We talk all the time and we get together, and... That was one where, like there was a certain responsibility at the radar site at the at the radar station. In fact, I remember one time it wasn't my shift, but I got a call at the barracks that said “You need to come in and work.” So I got dressed, went up the hill to the radar site and, you know, the other the other tech was there. This guy and they were like, “OK, she's on the machine.” So he got up. I sat down. I mean, seriously, a monkey with enough training could have done our job because there was a screen and there was a sweep. And there was a line. And you had to use this ball and like, roll the line up and went up. An aircraft appeared as a blip. You rolled up the line, intersected the blip and hit enter. That was it. It's just recording the height of this aircraft. So he said “You're going to—something's going to come across the screen. You're only going to get one sweep and you've got to get it.” And I went, “OK.” There were like, five people with a lot of brass standing in the room. I'm like, “Alright, whatever this is, it's just a plane. Don't freak out, Julie. It's just a plane.” So they're looking at their watches and they're like, “Get ready. Get ready.” And usually you would get, like, four blips. You had plenty of time to roll that line. It was seriously one and I hit it and they're like, “OK, you can go.” So apparently this was like some test run of this new bomber. I'm like, I don't know why George couldn't have done that. Pretty sure George could have done that, but.MMF
Do you know which bomber it was?
JDM
So the B-12 has the pointy nose that. Kind of.
MMF
OK. Yeah, I think it is.
JDM
Yeah, because that was right about the time I was getting ready to leave there.
And then I remember shortly after I got out of the Air Force, it was like on the cover of Time magazine or something. And I'm like, “Well, so much for national security.” You know, it gets everything gets declassified at a certain point.MMF
So Tacoma was your last duty station?
JDM
Yes. So I was two years in North Dakota and two years in Seattle.
MMF
So what? What, uh, what more? Leaving, were you just ready for the next thing, or...?
00:16:00 JDMWell, I got married. I was engaged and we were considering the options because
he was in the same career field, kind of looking at what our options were, and everybody that we knew that was that the two people were in the same career field, like someone that we knew, the husband was being sent away and the wife could not go. Actually, no. The wife was being deployed remotely and he could not go. So he had their six month old baby at home and his wife went to Alaska for a year. Like, yeah, we're not going that road. So I was not committed as a career. I never really thought I would go in and spend twenty years. I just wanted the experience and to get out. And you know, if I had really loved it, I would have found a way to stay. But we talked it over and I'm like, his dad was career military retired and it was kind of like...all in that for him. I'm sorry. Can I ask you to pause for just one second? This is. My boss.MMF
Oh, of course. [Narrator receives a phone call; paused Zoom recording]
JDM
Hang on. Hi. Sorry about that. Well, I'm not hearing you.
MMF
Sorry, it's OK. I actually had to plug in my machine as well, so don't worry.
You were just mentioning how you met your spouse? Your husband, right?JDM
Right, right. We were together. We didn't want to risk one of us having to go
remotely, and it's probably smart, cause we've been married about a year and a half. When he got sick.MMF
And so you were both—you were both radar operators? You're both in?
JDM
Yeah. So I got out and then we got married because I I just finished my four
years, and then we got married. Had a child and when she was six months old, he got sent to Alaska for a year, which really I I have to say, it was kind of the beginning of the end of our marriage. He just came back a very different person. I don't know the—I mean it wasn't like he was at war, it wasn't like that, but it's a lot of...a personality thing. But anyway, yeah, and that didn't happen right away because we had three kids, so we obviously stuck it out for a while. But yeah, then let's see. We were married, we got divorced. I came back to Saint Louis. Finished my education and kind of went from there.MMF
So you had started your degree before you joined?
JDM
While I was in the service, I did take some classes when they were offered, you know.
MMF
Oh, OK. So like correspondence courses, or...?
JDM
A couple were the, what's it called? The College of the Air Force, where they
would have local teachers teach classes. I just took, you know, fundamental stuff, some literature and algebra and tried to get the heinous stuff out of the way, you know.MMF
So like Gen. Ed's.
JDM
Yes, pretty much. And then David and I were stationed, go...where were we? And
that I took some classes. When we were in Florida, I was able to take a couple of some classes there. So yeah, I was about, I guess it was probably past freshman, maybe early sophomore in terms of number of hours, yeah. 00:17:00 MMFSo at this point you were moving for your husband's your husband's career. Can
you remind me of your husband's name? David? Davd Morton?JDM
David. David Morton. Yes.
MMF
So, did you—OK, so this is about, we're in what, 1976, 1977?
JDM
Yeah, let's see. We were married in ‘74. Let's see, ‘74, ‘78, right? Because I
went in in ‘74, so we got out in ‘78, right. And then we had, I had my children in ‘79, ‘81, ‘83. At that point we were in Florida. ‘84 we got divorced and I moved back to Saint Louis.MMF
OK. And and you said because your parents and siblings and and family, the
family connection was was the strongest for you?JDM
Yeah, I was, I didn't have real job skills. You know, the kids and I needed a
place to live. We came back here. Lived with my parents for a while, so I kind of got a job and got things going so.MMF
So when you came back to UMSL to finish, your degree, sort of what went into
that choice, did you feel that as a veteran it was suitable, or the location or the cost or what? What kind of went into that decision? 00:18:00 JDMWell, you know a state college they had, I liked what I saw in terms of the art
history program. They seemed like they were.... The ability to accept my other credits was good. And it was pretty convenient. I mean, I had looked at Lindenwood because I was right there in Saint Charles, but the program wasn't great and just didn't appeal to me that much. And like I said, with UMSL and my GI Bill financially, it was just a lot better, a better match for me.MMF
You were able to support the kids while going, I assume.
JDM
Actually, no. My parents supported me. I mean, the GI Bill helped pay for the
college, but yeah, I had some support.MMF
Ohh OK so. Yeah, it would have been Montgomery [GI Bill], so there was no
housing benefit or anything like that back then.JDM
Right, right. It it covered the schooling and like books and things, but it
wasn't enough to live on. It hadn't been for my parents, I would not have been able to do it.MMF
Were they...? I mean, obviously they were providing support, but how would you
see like, what would you say there if you don't mind my if this. Isn't too much of a question. You know, they were, you know, they were providing support, but would you say that? They were like pleased. Just please just ready to help or.JDM
I'm not sure I understand your question.
MMF
Or like you know, how did, I guess like I guess you know, were you able to tell how?
JDM
I mean, they were...
MMF
...How they felt about your position and, and what they knew about him. So how
they felt about UMSL and your going there. 00:19:00JDM
Oh, they were happy that I was able to do it. I mean they were very supportive
of my ability to get a college degree and they felt that would help me, you know, be able to care for my provide for my children better. Yeah. They—I would say that living with your parents with your children, even in a very loving situation, which ours was, had its moments, you know. My mother and I parent very differently. We had to sometimes, you know, remember who was the actual parent. Of these three children like me, not her. But you know, we found our way. I basically I did not even pay rent, the four of us lived with them while I finished school until I got a job and was able to afford an apartment. So it was a a great deal of financial help there.MMF
And I I hear you on that sometimes, even with my parents watching the little
one, it's like things are different. It's not...JDM
It is. It is different, isn't it?
MMF
You. So you said you? You mentioned. You know, returning back to, you know, to
art history that being a determining thing at the same time, you know, also thinking about supporting the family. So did you pretty much know what kind of, you know, what kind of career trajectory you we're going to have your eye on at this point of, you know, in curatorship or were you just like, Well, I'll get the degree and then the. The jobs will will come or. You know, what was the interplay of those things?JDM
Yeah, I I actually thought with the degree in art history that I would cause
when I when I went in to. To UMSL. Like you said, it was kind of a turning point moment. I had to pick something, and I picked art history thinking really that I would teach. You know, undergraduate doesn't really tell you if that's what you want to do or not. I I honestly admired several of my professors here very much.MMF
Who were?
00:20:00 JDMRuth Bowen was the professor of art history at the time, who was supposed to be
my advisor because I was interested in American art. She was on sabbatical the year that I started, or the semester that I started. So I worked with Gaie. Evan, who was a Renaissance specialist, just a lovely person. And she's like, “I don't know American, but I'll help you any way I can.” And she just she was great when Ruth came back, she took over as my advisor and was just an exceptional advisor. She was very helpful in my process of applying for graduate school. And she's currently the President of the Board, the Advisory Board for the Mercantile Library Art. When I came back, she was retiring and I asked her if she would come onto the board and she did. We had a different person as president at the time, and when he was a businessman, needed to step away because he had more business demands, and so I asked her to if she would be the President and she said yes. And now for the past year, she's been volunteering for me, since she retired full time so. Talking to a friend of mine who we were undergraduates together, and I'm like, “Laura, it's the weirdest thing. Ruth is my volunteer!” And she's like, “What? What?” Yeah. Full circle here. I'm like, “Yes, it was very strange.” 00:21:00 MMFWould you say it was always sort of a close knit community like that, at the
Mercantile or in art history, you know, broadly?JDM
At UMSL, the department was very close. The students got together often. Several
of us had kids, and it was, you know, we'd have barbecues and picnics and just hang out. And it was great. So that was great. I remember being told, and I I don't remember who, I don't remember if it was Ruth who said this, that. That sometimes graduate school can be very cutthroat. You know that people defend their area of research and, you know, you have to just be on your guard. I had such a different experience at Delaware. It was very, very much of A close knit community of people, kind of all struggling in the same ways. One of my first classes was with my advisor, Wayne Craven, on American sculpture. And you know, I mentioned my interest in Harriet Hosmer. And after class one of the women in the program who was closer to graduating, she said, “You know, I've done some work on American women sculptors. I have a couple of, you know, some pages of bibliography. I'd be glad to share those with you.” It was like, “Tthat would be super! Thanks!” I'm thinking, “OK, not cutthroat. This is great.”MMF
You think that, like so, were you? You're you're undergraduate. And umm, soul,
you know like like, you know, was that a good preparation? I think for an atmosphere like that, do you think or do you think there was a continuity there and and it was just a collegial field and, you know. Wherever you happen to.JDM
Be I think it must be. Yeah, I think the UMSL experience really solidified my
interest in it, and it made me interested in teaching, I think, because I had such good professors and I was like, I want to connect with people that way, you know, and I saw people in the sort of general classes who weren't there because they loved art history, they were there because they needed those humanities credits, but still they would get—they would become genuinely interested because the classes were taught so well, you know, and it was. That's like, I want to be that teacher, you know, I want to be that professor.Speaker
You think?
MMF
Ohh I'm I'm sorry I.
JDM
Thought you, that's fine. Go ahead.
00:22:00 MMFSo UMSL was a pretty new campus at this point, so it would have been about
twenty years old. Mm-hmm. What would you say were the dynamics as far as like living there, commuting? Being a veteran, you know, like the community there? I find right now that the veteran community is very strong, that's, you know, that was part of my choice there. I'm kind of curious about the development of that atmosphere and also like if you think—you know, you know, since it was sort of a new, it was part of University of Missouri, but it, you know, the campus would have been pretty young. And so I wonder if you think that you know, sort of allowed it to be so open. 00:23:00 JDMIt's a good question, really. I mean, at at the time. We were, you know, we were
a commuter campus. I'm not sure there were any dormitories at that point. So, you know, the fact that I was driving in was I was like everybody else doing that. I I do remember though, that there was a mix of ages in the classes which I think had been part of my concern coming back. It's like, well, you know, I'm in my thirties, you know, I'm not your standard undergraduate student, but there were a lot of people who weren't standard undergraduate, so I think that maybe that demographic of the UMSL campus was I was part of that demographic. So it was very welcoming. You know, I felt comfortable. Here it also—I know a lot of my guests don't think so, but I find the UMSL camp is pretty easy to navigate. Unlike some campuses, you know, and I'm not the best at directions and I was able to find things. So that says something about how friendly this campus is. Yeah, I just, I had a good feeling here. I felt good from the time I started.MMF
So do you think—and so like that I guess like was that part of your criteria
when you're looking for a graduate program, or was it more about you know like I want this to come to you know I want this collegial, open, diverse, welcoming feeling to continue or you know, was that really more about your specialty, your American art specialty?JDM
It was more about the specialty. I mean, I talked to Ruth [Bowen] quite a bit
about it and her years of experience in the field. She was able to say, you know, “Well, these are the people you might want to study with. You know, these are universities with strong programs in that area.” I really admired Wayne Cravens's work on neoclassical sculpture and University of Delaware, I honestly didn't think that I would get in. I mean, it's one of the top schools for American art. And so I thought, you know, aim high. And I did apply to Washington University. They had a good program at the time. They had a Masters but not a PhD. And I thought if I want to teach, I need the PhD. So I preferred to go to a school where I could continue on and not have to reapply and potentially move again, so I was accepted at Wash U with a, you know, a decent support package. Better than Delaware, but don't ever tell my parents. Because I didn't tell them that. Yeah, I got accepted to Delaware. It didn't have quite the aid package, but it's what I wanted. So I made the decision and packed up my three children, ages ten to fourteen. You moved it.MMF
How did I? Mean. How did they feel about it?
00:24:00JDM
I think they thought it was a little bit of an adventure. I'm not sure they you
know that like my son was ten he he had no idea. Like we're just, “This is what we're doing.” My girls were...it was a little harder. I think they were more connected to friends and starting to build that, you know, teen preteen, social life. So that was a little harder for them. I think the advantage to them was they went from all three being in one Catholic school to all, each being in a separate school because of elementary, middle school, high school. So I think that kind of helped them in a way to just form new a new circle of friends.MMF
Yeah, and sort of. So let you know. Strike out on their own to. To be teenagers,
yeah. And would you say that was important? Important to you on their behalf, since since your own path was so distinctive compared to, maybe, your family of origin, or...?JDM
I think so. I think I thought a lot about me, I guess every parent does you
think about the impact of your decisions on your children on your family and? It did work out and one of the things that worked out in the way I hoped was that. The opportunities in Delaware were tremendous. I mean, the Northeast Corridor, they, you know, they had field trips to the Hubble telescope, they had. You know the things that you just... Not that the Saint Louis Science Center isn't fantastic, but it's different, you know.MMF
Well, yeah, and the states are also close together, so...
JDM
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You can drive across Delaware and at the time it takes to
drive to East Saint Louis, you know, and it's just not that great.MMV
I'm not that familiar with Delaware. Is it like a historic campus?
JDM
Yes, the original college there was built, I think in maybe like 1820? I mean,
it's like, yeah, really old.Speaker
OK so.
MMF
Yeah. So.
JDM
So the original building and then.
MMF
It's not at all like I'm sold that way.
00:25:00 JDMNot at all. Yeah, I remember driving into Newark and. Seeing the streets kind of
just intersect at the college there and I was like, “Please let that be my building!” It's just...And it was, and the artistry was in that building. It was just great. Great federal architecture.MMF
So culturally, how would you say going from Saint Louis to the East Coast, you
know, New England, sort of, you know, sort of was...were you were you pegged as an outsider, or was it...?JDM
Not in a college town. Everybody's died in a college town.
MMF
Yeah, that's true. It's. True, I didn't. Think of that.
JDM
And I guess I. Still didn't really think of myself as a Saint Louisan You know,
I was still from Saint Charles.MMF
That's true. Yeah. From Saint Charles, wasn't really part of it then.
JDM
So that was very different, but it was. Newark is not a big city, so you know
you're pretty much on campus, around campus. It was fairly comfortable. The kids’ schools were were good schools. They did well there and then while I was there, I started working at the Delaware Art Museum. So then I got to know Wilmington a little bit more, which still not the size of Saint Louis. But you know, a decent city. So yeah, I would say...I think for my kids, seeing my experience through UMSL first of all, not going right from high school to college. You know, just going back to what you were saying about setting up, comparing my path, and setting them up for an equally, you know, better or equally diverse path. I thought that the move to Delaware was, would be good for them. In that way it would open up some doors that they might not have had otherwise, and I think it did. My oldest daughter actually went in the Air Force, did OK. Didn't stay in. My son, went in the Air Force, didn't stay in. But, you know, did OK. My little child was like there's no way she was going to go into the service. She was just like, “I'm sorry, you have to roll your underwear? Why do you do that?” I think if you would ask that question, it means you should never go in the military.MMF
Oh, so those habits stayed with you?
JDM
Yeah. Yeah. Well, when Erica was talking about this is what she was learning in
basic training, right? Like how you rolled your own. And she's like, “Why do you roll your underwear?” “Because they tell you to.” 00:26:00MMF
I get a little bit of that for my family. Yeah, my mom's like, “I could never.”
You know, when I was first in and my mom would, I would get a lot of “Well, can't you just talk to your commander about that? If you don't like it?” No!JDM
Not really.
00:27:00MMF So, you know, the vita stuff: So you so graduated until 1970 or...JDM
‘87.
MMF
1987? I'm sorry. And so then you went to Delaware and you were there for 3-4 years?
JDM
Let's see. I went up in ‘92. Or early. Maybe it was ‘93, because—no, it was ‘92
because it was the year of the flood. It was crazy.MMF
OK.
JDM
Got my MA in ‘96. I came back here in 2002 for this job, still writing my
dissertation at that point and then completed the dissertation and graduated in 2005. 00:28:00 MMFWhat was your dissertation about?
JDM
Well, the master's thesis I did on Harriet Hosmer, whose sculpture is a major
piece of our in our collection here and then the master's thesis was art patronage in Saint Louis from private homes to a public museum. And it was basically the museum movement in Saint Louis, starting with people at the Mercantile, actually, who were art collectors, who were also our board members and were influential in building this collection. They started holding exhibitions and there was kind of a series of people kind of from one generation to the next who are trying to set up, set up—to find a way to set up a full-time museum for art here in Saint Louis. So you know, we were kind of the first art gallery that wasn't really our mission. Then they started supporting art exhibitions at the agricultural fair and then the Exposition in Music Hall. And these were great, but they were once a year and then...Then the World's Fair thing started and everybody got on board with that. And other cities had used that as a way to get an Art Museum. But. Building and so Saint Louis did the same thing where the one permanent building from the fair is the Art Museum building so. 00:29:00MMF
I remember that from the [St. Louis World’s Fair] Centennial as a kid. So
because I remember when we the world's fair, I was let's say...2004, so I was 10 or 11.JDM
Alright, how old do I feel? Sorry. 2004. Yeah. Well, you know, when I was
talking to my daughter and I was like, a couple years ago, I said, “You know, I've been at the library eighteen years,” and she's like, “Wow, Mom, if you'd had a baby, they'd be graduating right now!” It's like, it's not really necessary! Do you need to hear those words?MMF
To why? Why, what did that add to conversation?
JDM
Exactly. Thank you. So.
MMF
So...Did you envision coming back to work here after working on the stuff in the
collection? Like, was that a goal, or did it just sort of pan out that way?JDM
Well, it was interesting because I didn't know about the Mercantile Library
until I went to graduate school.MMF
Oh, so when you were in undergrad, it wasn't really on your radar even.
JDM
And it was. Though well, no, they weren't. They weren't here. Oh, yeah, I should
interject that they moved here in ‘98.MMF
Oh, OK. I’m not familiar with the history so. OK.
00:30:00 JDMYeah, it was after I was here. And so it was in Professor Craven’s sculpture
class that I kind of discovered Harriet Hosmer and looking into her work. I was like, wow, there's several pieces in Saint Louis. She has a Saint Louis connection. She actually wasn't from here, but knew someone here and her major patron was here. So a lot of her works are in the Wash U collection. And then this one here at the Mercantile. So doing my master's thesis was what introduced me to the Mercantile Library. And at that point, they were still downtown at 510 Locust. And so I would come home in the summers. My kids would, you know, have babysitting with grandma. And I would run to the library and do my research. And then I still remember the year that I called Charles Brown, our head of reference, to set up my summer research visit. And he's like, “I don't know if we can help you because we're moving.” And I thought I was going to drop the phone. I mean, they have this wonderful historic building. But he made it work for me that summer. God bless him. He had a little table and all of my stuff and they were like pallet movers moving newspapers and palletized books out of the Mercantile library behind me as I'm typing away. You know, and so when I interviewed for the job, it was really the first time I'd been here at the Mercantile, at its new location, you know, new then. So, yeah, it was kind of exciting to be part of it. And part of its life here at UMSL, you know, so as in UMSL. Bringing all these things together here was kind of exciting for me. 00:31:00 MMFSo, what happened to the building on Locust?
JDM
I believe now it has been converted to condos. It's the last I heard, yeah.
MMF
How do you feel about that?
JDM
It's well, it's better than being torn down. I guess it—Somewhere in the ‘60s or
‘70s, I think, a new facade had been put on it. So it didn't look like the Mercantile from the historic pictures, so that was already like not.MMF
...On the table?
00:32:00 JDMYou know. Yeah. And I, you know, I'd have to go look. I haven't been down in
that neighborhood. I don't know if they took off the ‘70s facade and went back to the original, or if they kept it, or what they did when they renovated the building. But that would be worth a Metrolink ride down there to see what the old building looks like. Yeah, it was great. It was such a great experience walking in that door for the first time and seriously, that reading room was like time travel. I mean, there were wing chairs and little tables with carafe of water and a glass, like an actual glass. Wow, the newspaper stands. You know, and I walked in that door and I seriously expected somebody to say “Oh, I'm sorry, gentlemen only.” You know, I mean it just had that nineteenth-century feel.MMF
Yeah, very Progressive Era moment.
JDM
Yeah. Well, but that was before I knew that that from our beginnings, the
Mercantile allowed women members. 00:33:00MMF
I did not know that.
JDM
I didn't know that either until I started working here, so I'm going to give us
some points for that. But yeah, I worked with Charles Brown there. He was—He had a reference then and still is. And it's been wonderful continuity there. Just seeing you know how the mercantile has developed and become part of campus life and. Yeah, it's been great.MMF
If you if you feel comfortable guessing, I guess what I mean. You've been with
the Mercantile for a long time now and it's been as a curator. So what do you think are your contributions to that development?JDM
I can think of quite a few works of art that we would not have acquired if I
hadn't recommended them. You know, based on my research into Missouri artists. The Luce Foundation grant [OC: Henry Luce Foundation] that we got for $130,000 that enabled us to clean sculpture and paintings. Get professional photography and publish a handbook. Get new gallery lighting. That I really considered sort of my legacy project for this for my position here because at that point, I felt like this collection really is in better shape than when I found it. You know, it's grown in significant ways and it's been taken care of and we have, you know, good quality gallery lighting so things are protected from fading, and all of those important things. And then the renovation project happened and we're getting a new gallery. So it's like, OK, a second legacy gallery for Missouri art, so. Yeah, we've got several. We've gotten a significant amount of funding, probably close to $2,000,000 that we've raised from foundations and individuals just for the gallery, which is so gratifying to me to see that the Saint Louis community really recognizes the importance of Missouri's cultural heritage and that it's going to be here on this campus where, you know, it's an easy Metrolink ride for anybody, and we're free and open. You know, anybody can walk in.MMF
Like the other museums, yeah, definitely part of the cultural landscape that
way. So that is very encouraging. I love hearing stuff like that.JDM
Yeah, we're excited about it and but they just chose the contractor and
construction is supposed to start December 18th. So we are right on the verge.1:
00:34:00 MMFWell, thank you and congratulations. And then I guess so you think that—You
mentioned the Metrolink a couple times, and this is sort of...I don't want to open a whole new can of worms because we've been here for a while but I remember when the Metrolink expanded. UMSL is still on the old Metrolink [Red Line] right? It's not on the new [Blue Line]? 00:35:00JDM
Correct. It's on the original iteration.
MMF
Yeah. OK. How did that...This is just sort of something I'm curious about,
because I rode a lot of Metrolink when I was a teenager and didn't have a car and I spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, sort of the perceptions about that, and it came up and other Alumnus interviews we've listened to, so. Like, you seem to be in favor. You seem to be pleased. Do you think that that--can you comment a little bit about that, about the role the Metrolink plays at UMSL?JDM
Life more accessible?
Speaker
That's a good.
JDM
I'm sorry.
MMF
You think it makes it more accessible?
1:
00:36:00 JDMI do. It's not always as easy for us to direct guests from a Metrolink station
to us, because then they do have to navigate campus. And you know, I'm not always sure that I can say to them, “Just cut through the Millennium Student Center.” You know, I'm not sure that it's always going to be open, and now I think in general it does make it more accessible. And I I mean, I've—my child lives in New York. I've been on New York subways a lot. Metrolink is a lot cleaner than that. Let me tell you. I hope I'm not just naive, but I've never really felt in danger or at risk on a Metrolink. You know, I've ridden them downtown a lot. We sometimes we've gone to the baseball game. You know, we've ridden the Metrolink. So yeah, I don't have any adverse feelings about it. In fact, when I— when the Mercantile was still downtown, I would park here on the UMSL campus or at Hanley Station and take the train down rather than try to park downtown.MMF
Same. I've had jobs I've had, I've had jobs downtown. My parents live right near
Wash U, but I remember when they were building the Blue Line, I think it is. There were protests!JDM
Yeah, I don't get that. I you know, I do remember now that you say that because
they were talking about continuing it into Saint Charles and I was like, that would be so great. Get into Saint Charles and the people in Saint Charles. I'm sorry, my sister and brother included. Like, “Why do we need the Metrolink over here? We don't need all those bums and robbers coming over here.” And I'm like, “Yeah, because the robber is gonna take your TV and then escape!” 00:37:00 MMFAnd then get on the train? Yeah, exactly.
JDM
Hello! Wake up. Yeah, I don't know. I I don't understand the protest thing at
all. I don't.MMF
Yeah, I mean do you have thoughts on what might be behind it, or...?
JDM
Yeah, I don't. As my daughter Erica says, “I got nothing.” You know, I just have
no concept.MMF
Because everything that too I remember being when I was, I mean, I guess I was a
teenager and I would tell people that. “I took the bus or took the train.” They go, “Really?! Is that safe?” And I'm like, I don't know anybody who's ridden Metro it who’s had a safety issue...I mean, you know, it's like you said, I've been to London, I've been to New York and it's....JDM
Yeah. Well, I've been to Tokyo on a Tokyo subway. Let me tell you, we've
had—I've had, we had an exhibition here. It was organized through the International Studies.MMF
Oh my. What's that for?
JDM
They had a connection with the Shibusawa Museum in Tokyo. That was the life and
collections of a Japanese businessman. And so we did a joint exhibition here on kind of the economic and cultural development of China and Japan during this particular period, when Mr. Shibusawa was alive. So like you know...maybe 1950, something like that. And it was very successful. The Shibusawa people really liked it, and so they wanted to stage it at their museum, so my boss and I made several trips to Japan and then when we opened the exhibition there, I spent three weeks in Tokyo. Just me. That was so crazy. What an amazing experience. I know. And I told my parents what was going on. I was going to have this opportunity. My dad was like, “Is that what you thought would happen? You know, when you took this job?” And I was like, “Dad, I'm an Americanist. I expected to go to Boston.” You know, it's like not Tokyo!MMF
Yeah, it's funny because you know, because you join the Air Force and it's the
Mercantile that sends you traveling... 00:38:00 JDM...the world. Yeah, exactly. I know my one of my roommates in basic training, or
in tech school rather. She went to London. She was an air traffic controller and I'm like, “OK, great, you're going to London. I'm going to Fortuna, North Dakota. Somebody likes you better.” Yeah. So I have had tremendous travel opportunities here as a courier. And, you know, for exhibition work, so.MMF
You're meaning like the one who's responsible for physically taking the piece of
art overseas? Wow. So how many? What kind of other travel has that involved?1:
00:39:00 JDMLet's see. We went to Luxembourg for the Art and Embassies program, which was
great, and I went to Dublin for Art and Embassies. Twice. We've had art work on loan to that program. We went to Paris, we loaned artwork to the Cape brand, Lee, for they had an exhibition that they did in conjunction with the Nelson Atkins Museum on the Plains Indians. And we have some early Ledger drawings. So we loaned those on that one. I got to fly on a cargo plane. Which was basically, the cockpit and then this opening and chairs.MMF
Another thing you didn't get to go to... [OC: in the Air Force]
JDM
Yeah, didn't get to do. That in the Air Force. And I had friends who were
aircraft mechanics and they couldn't get us into the planes. Nobody got near those. So yeah, it was just an amazing experience. Had some good opportunities for sure.MMF
That's great and I'm really glad that we got to talk about all that. So that
you. Know they'll know. Uh, you know, it'll be known the contributions that the Mercantile and you have made to just the international art scene because I think like people think about the Saint Louis scene, you know? And like, yeah, it has a stature, but I think people don't always know how it fits into the bigger the bigger picture, I think, and I think some people think Saint Louis is sort of in its own self.JDM
Yeah, there is that sort of “flyover zone” mentality, you know. But I think
people outside of Saint Louis don't always recognize.MMF
Yeah. And I've never agreed.
JDM
I mean, we have the an encyclopedic museum in the Saint Louis Art Museum. We
have, you know, the Pulitzer. For contemporary and the contemporary art, for like really cutting-edge modern things. We have the Mercantile for historic Missouri art and contemporary Missouri art. I mean, we have an amazing variety. You know, the Grille museum, just the museum world that we have here is incredible. So, I mean, even just as far away as Springfield, MO, which isn't that far, you know, the Kemper in Kansas City, there's a lot going on here. 00:40:00 MMFSo in addition to, since your time here, what do you think? Like since you were
a kid, you know, you said that the Saint Charles St. Louis dynamic has changed a lot. There's been a lot of growth. Do you think that in your lifetime, not just in your time at UMSL, there's been a sort big leap forward or sort of advance in our arts and letters culture? Or do you think that that's been a pretty steady legacy?JDM
Here in Saint Louis, you mean? Yeah. Oh, I think definitely advancements, I
think. Just the number of foundations supporting art, the Regional Arts foundation, the Missouri Arts Council, the work that they've done. Even UMSL's own involvement in the arts, I mean gallery 2. 10 which...MMF
That was going to be my next question.
JDM
With the state, well, I mean. I I was a volunteer at Gallery 210, you know, all
the, all those students in the department took turns sitting there and watching the guest book. And at the time Tom Cohen was, he was bringing some of the leading New York artists, bringing their work here. I mean it. We had an audience beyond the UMSL campus for sure. And I actually just heard from Tom Cohen the other day. So it's crazy how, you know, people circle around.MMF
Would you say that the Mercantile gets a lot of like? You know, I mean, you know
it's like we talked about the Metro and you talked about, you know, telling visitors how to get there. So it's like, you know, the [Saint Louis] Art Museum, you get off the train and there it is, right? Like do you get, you know, does the Mercantile get a lot of foot traffic, or would you say it's mostly students or mostly organized tours?JDM
Well, first of all, what train are you taking that you get off right in front of
the Art Museum? Because there's no train that doesn't involve you walking up Art Hill.MMF
Well, right, yeah—for the History Museum, I mean, sorry. Yeah. Or like, you
know, like, right in front of Forest Park, sort of the mouth of the museum darea.JDM
Oh, the History Museum. Sure. History Museum.
MMF
Sorry, it’s the History Museum.
JDM
As I say, if that's changed, that's great because I love that.
00:41:00 MMFSo there, so now there's the—I worked at the Art Museum once and I took the
train. So like the Forest Park trolley drops you right from the History Museum. But there is now a whole Forest Park shuttle and the bus will drop you off right in front of the Art Museum.JDM
There's a trolley, right? Oh, good. Well, thank goodness and been checking on
that. So good to know. Yeah. So where were we going? We were going about the...what was the question?JDM
The what was the question?
1:
00:42:00 MMFOh, yeah. It is, you know, does the mercantile get foot traffic, or...?
JDM
Accessibility and. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah, more than you might think we
have. We've backed off a little like pre-COVID. We were really very dynamic and posting our exhibitions on all of the online calendars. You know, we have a large mailing list, really get the word out and we get walk-ins quite a bit, especially on weekends. We used to have free public tours on the weekend that, you know, you just didn't have a reservation. You just walked in and they were...Since COVID and then all the renovation stuff, we just haven't started pushing those things again for the public because it's just so uncertain what's going to, what our capability will be to take a tour group, but I absolutely envision with the reopening a really big push for promotion and get people back on campus for that. Get the tours going again, get our programs going again and get people back on campus.MMF
I certainly hope so. Do you think so? I mean, so COVID. So there's been some
setbacks as far as things like foot traffic and events, but has there been like, you know in in that slow-down what I found for a lot of places is that so yeah business, you know, in many industries and places it slows down, but this gives us an opportunity to sort of work on some of the stuff we fell behind on. Did you find that that happened with COVID? Not that you fell behind on anything. But you know, sort of if there was anything that, you know, “Oh, I just. Haven't had the time to do this,” or...?JDM
A little bit, yeah. We actually started an online education program. Classroom
materials, basically to help maybe support teachers who are trying to teach at home and you know....MMF
...and didn't come in to go, and so you made the stuff available to them.
00:43:00JDM
Right. So it was all online and that's we've continued with that and it
continues to get usage. It did give us a chance to kind of sit step back a little bit. But I mean we we went home in March 2020 and by August we were back in the in the the library because the students were technically in class, even if there weren't many of them on campus, and we were required to be here to provide support so. I know the people upstairs did, you know, a skeleton crew basically for social distancing and all that, and we split our team in half. And so we were: Team A was in for two weeks and home for two weeks, and then vice versa. So that so much of what we do, we have to be here and have our hands on collections to do it. So you can't do everything at home, so that gave us a chance to do that and keep kind of keep all the all the jobs going.MMF
Do you think there have been any lasting impacts from COVID on things like
procedures or accessibility?JDM
Oh definitely. When we started doing our all of our programs online and hybrid.
We heard from people who have been members for years but don't live in town, and they were just so glad to be able to actually take part. So we still do almost everything hybrid. So that you know, we still have people from across the country who are Zooming in and hearing our speakers and enjoying our programs, so.MMF
And that's sort of a case where like before COVID, the infrastructure or the
will wasn't really there to do that. And like...because someone had probably, that probably occurred to somebody before, right. And then...JDM
But we didn't have the skills and really understand the interest that there
would be in it. You know, we did not anticipate that degree of interest in our distant members. So it was really gratifying to find that and like you say when you've, you've got to learn how to do it. You find out how to do it and you know, we got pretty good at it, if I say so myself. So yeah, we can do it fairly seamlessly now.MMF
That's great. Is there anything that you sort of wish I would ask?
00:44:00 JDMNo, I think your questions have been pretty thorough. I just I guess for me,
just thinking about this whole interview process and and what might be involved and the connections between me and the Mercantile and UMSL and how those things have all come together, it makes me a little nostalgic, actually, that I'm at this point in my career. And like you say, I feel like I have been able to make some good contributions, certainly leaving it better than I found it, which is no aspersion on the person before, because there was no person before, you know, so was able to, really, I think, establish some good procedures and, yeah. I just think with this renovation especially, the Mercantile will just be an even more dynamic part of the UMSL campus, and I love the fact that they're kind of—that the master plan sort of refocuses attention on this part of the campus to make it really more of a central hub. And that that extra set of doors. I know the librarians aren't always crazy about having two exit doors in a building, but it really will make this, it's going to facilitate getting from one place to another on campus, and the library is going to be busier than ever. 00:45:00 MMFThat's a great note to end on, I think! So?
JDM
OK.
MMF
It's been a pleasure. Thank you for sharing your, you know, experiences as an
alumnus and how they've shaped your great career as the curator of the Fine Art collection. I think this is another you know, hopefully another valuable contribution to the campus history and there's some things I'd love to talk about offline, but now's not the time. So.JDM
Well, I've enjoyed it too. I thought your questions were well structured and
really helped me share some some important things. I'm glad to be contributing.MMF
Oh well, I appreciate that. Thanks. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording
and oh, and uh, I'm going to be sending you a release form. To archive this interview as well. 00:46:00 JDMOK. Sounds good. [Ends]
00:47:00