UMSL @ 60 - Dr. Dowden-White

Kylie: My name is Kylie Flynn and today's date is Wednesday, December 6th, 2023. Today I am interviewing Dr. Priscilla A. Dowden-White, Associate Professor and Internship Director of the History Department and Director of the African and African American Diaspora Studies Certificate program at the University of Missouri in Saint Louis. She currently teaches a variety of courses on African American history, United States history since 1865, and the history of Saint Louis. This interview is being conducted as part of the celebrations for the 60th anniversary of UMSL. Dr. Dowden-White, could you please state your full name and spell it out for me.

Dr. Dowden-White (Dr. D-W): Priscilla Anne Dowden-White. PRISC 00:01:00ILLA ANNE DOWDEN hyphen white. WHITE.

Kylie: Thank you very much and I just wanted to remind you that this is being recorded and at the end of your interview, you will sign a release form. So, we can begin by your origins. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Dr. D-W: I was born in St. Louis, MO, and I was reared in St. Louis, MO. I was born in North Saint Louis. My parents rented an apartment in North Saint Louis on Kennerly Avenue, on the 3800 block of Kennerly. I don't believe there are any houses there left anymore. And in 00:02:001968 they began purchasing their home in the 38 block of Labadie, which was only a few blocks away. And so, I did not leave Saint Louis, until I well, of course I went on vacations and what have you, but I did not leave Saint Louis to live anywhere else until I went off to graduate school.

Kylie: And were your parents from Saint Louis originally then?

Dr. D-W: Yes, both of my parents were from Saint Louis.

Kylie: And then, what I guess what brought you back to Saint Louis?

Dr. D-W: So, I left Saint Louis initially when I started college. Started my 00:03:00undergraduate career at Hofstra University on Long Island, New York, in Long Island, New York. And I transferred to University of Missouri, St. Louis as a sophomore. I had - I had actually completed my first year at Hofstra and I made the Dean's list. I had worked very hard, and I said I'm going to go home and relax and have some fun. And, and I did, but I was a little in having that fun and I got pregnant with my daughter, who is now 41 years old. And I went back to Hofstra After that summer, when I became pregnant, I went back to Hofstra and completed 00:04:00the first semester of my sophomore year. And that second semester I stayed home in Saint Louis and gave birth to my daughter in March of that semester and in June, I actually enrolled here at the University of Missouri, St. Louis as a transfer student and I stayed in Saint Louis. I didn't return back to Hofstra because I needed the support system of my family, being a young 20-year-old single parent. And so that's how I came back to Saint Louis as - as an undergrad.

Kylie: How was, I guess prior to, you know, having to return to Saint Louis? How was that 00:05:00transition between, you know, Saint Louis and then to the East Coast? Do you remember what that felt like at, you know, a young age?

Dr. D-W: Oh, oh, yes. You know, I remember when I first, when I first went off to Hofstra, I - I went on a Greyhound bus. And that's a very, very long ride. And a Hofstra was such a beautiful, it had such a beautiful campus, and I was enrolled in a freshman-level program that aimed to really immerse students into the liberal arts immediately. And I remember you know how much I just loved 00:06:00those courses and in so many ways they opened up a new world. For me, I had - I had, had some courses at Beaumont. I graduated from Beaumont High School, and I had had some courses, particularly in literature that helped to prepare me for some of the coursework that I had in that freshman-level program. But for the most part, it was all new to me, and it's interesting because one of my favorite courses that semester was a course on the Bible as literature, and that course just fascinated me because I had, I had been reared 00:07:00as a Christian, a Baptist, and so I was familiar with religion from my religious experience, but I was not familiar with religion as an academic, um, area of study. And further was not familiar with looking at the Bible from an intellectual perspective, not so much a religious perspective. And as I look back over my life and I thought about this several times over the years, that course. Had four. Greater impact on me and some of the things that I would later do that I'm sure we're going to talk about here, but the transition from 00:08:00from high school to college, for - for me there was a learning curve there. You know, I'm far away from home in Ithica, New York and - and Ithica, I'm thinking of Cornell now. We'll talk about that later. But in - in Hempstead, New York and I didn't really have a transitional, I didn't have any transition issues socially. Mainly the transition was going from high school level work to college level work, and you know, setting your own schedule for - for study and while I was at 00:09:00while I was at Hofstra, I was introduced to a – a speaker who was not a professor there at, at Hofstra. But he had been invited by some of the student organizations by by the one of the African American Student Organization. At that time, I didn't know it, but he was a very popular speaker in some circles of the African American community. He - he was what I call a popularizer of history. His field was Egyptology. His name was 00:10:00Doctor Yosef Ben-Jochannan. And, before I encountered him through a program that students had sponsored that had a major impact on me and that's why I'm telling you this story. I had actually heard of him and heard him speak on a television show, but I didn't know that this was the same person initially. One afternoon while I was taking a nap in my room and I was you know, kind of in that state of sleep, where you're asleep, but you can still hear what's going on. So, you're not totally asleep and I never will forget this. Doctor Ben, as he was affectionately called, was being interviewed. 00:11:00And I believe the show was called, “Like it Is.” And I heard the interviewers say, “So, are you telling me that the Bible lies?” And he said “Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you, the Bible does lie.” And I sit straight up in my bed because this was something that I found, so not necessarily that I found it objectionable, but it went against everything that I had been taught growing up in the church. And I began to listen to the interview and Doctor Ben and the interviewer continued 00:12:00to talk about what he meant by you know this question and - and Doctor Ben’s response to it. And at that point, I didn't think about it anymore, until some of my upperclassman friends. They would drag me around to different events on campus and they dragged me to this event on campus where Doctor Ben was speaking. And when I when he came out, I saw him. I said, “Oh my goodness, that is the man that I saw in this interview.” And so, his lecture on the African - the African presence in Ancient Egypt had such a profound impact on me that I decided 00:13:00to change my major. I started out thinking that I was going to be a marketing major. And at Hofstra, I had didn't have an opportunity to really go into my major before I transferred. So, when I came to UMSL, that summer, as I said, I enrolled in June of 1982. My intention was to be to be a marketing major, but as I took courses that semester, I was so disinterested in those courses that I realized, no, this is not really what I want to - what - what I want to to do. I was thinking that I wanted to be a marketing major because I've always enjoyed fashion and I had learned to sew 00:14:00when - when I was very young at, at age ten and I made my own clothes during that time when I was in college. And so, I had this idea that I was going to go into some business aspect of the fashion world, and as I took those marketing courses and what have you, those business courses and realized, you know, I hate this. You know, this is just not this is just not for me. I started to gravitate toward what I really liked and that's how I ended up majoring in history. And so, uh, and I'm not sure, Kylie. You know, if I've gone off from, if I've gone off from where, where, where - where you wanted me to - to go because your initial question was, you know, about the transition and I've talked about more than the transition from 00:15:00highschool to college but. I mean, those are some of the - the details of my life then that kind of uh set, you know, set into motion some of what I was going to to do later on after I graduated from - from college and went on to graduate school. And, you know, and throughout my - my career.

Kylie: Well, and it sounds like that was a very fundamental moment of time, especially for you to find your passion. And I can tell because of how you remember so much from that exact moment of like hearing him on TV and then making those connections. I guess too when I was thinking - when I was listening to your story, and I know you said you grew up Baptist, right? - when I was listening to your story and I know you said you grew up Baptist, right? 00:16:00Dr. D-W: Yes.

Kylie: Did your family go to church? And I'm guessing on a regular basis. How did your? I guess, did your parents ever realize that religion could be, you know, part of an academic setting? Was that something that you ever talked about or?

Dr. D-W: So, first of all, my family did go to church on a regular basis. I mean, we went every Sunday until my maternal grandmother passed. And I was a preteen when she passed and it's interesting because at that point you know, I'm going into my teen years and we still went to church, but not every Sunday. And to me, that says something about the role that my maternal grandmother played in, 00:17:00you know, in our family. My parents were clueless about religion as an academic field of – of study. Theology as an academic field of – of study. My father did not go to high school. He had to start working. He had to - He had to work rather. Stop going to school. After - after at some point and I don't know exactly when. But either you know right after he had finished elementary school and he may have, he may have started high school, but I don't think that he did. He - he one time at one time when my father's job as a steel mill worker, a steel foundry worker, 00:18:00ended in the late 1970s when steel foundries were closing. I had to help my father put together a resume, and it was then that - that I learned that he had not finished high school. He always had said that he graduated from Vashon High School. I don't know if he went at all. My mother had two years of college and both of my parents and my grandparents - everybody in - in my community that you know were a part of of my - my extended family. All of them, you know, instilled in me from the time I could remember, that I was going to go to college. So that was that was always there. But 00:19:00back to your initial question. No, my, my, my family did not look at religion that way, as a academic field of study. And although my family were regular church goers. I would not describe my family, as being deeply religious. So, you know, when I hear some people talk about growing up, you know, the impact of having a deeply religious family, parents and others in their family. That was not my experience. Church played an important role in our life, but looking back on it, it played more of an important social role 00:20:00in our life. And you know, I would not I - I would not characterize my - my parents, as being irreligious or anything. But - but and, and, and God was important and faith was important in my family. But it - it's interesting because now that I think back on it, I'm not surprised that when I began to question certain things about faith and religion, I felt free to do that. Not totally free, because there were other, you know, influences in - in my life and my 00:21:00surroundings that kind of pushed back on, including the church itself. You know, and when I think about Sunday school and - and I think about how the regular worship services were conducted. There was not room there for questioning, really. And so there was that, but the fact that my parents had not really created a place where I felt uncomfortable questioning is very important.

Kylie: And it sounds like too was that maybe, you know, church and it as also being, you know, a social - a social setting. I think it's almost kind of a place – 00:22:00I wonder if they saw it as a place of you know identity or a sense of community? You know, meeting other people at church.

Dr. D-W: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that, that - that's the role of the church in many communities. But growing up during the era that I did in the 1960s and - and 70s. In the black Community, church still played a major role as a place where African Americans who on a daily basis - on their jobs, for example. Not only experience discrimination but 00:23:00also, you know, experience not really being viewed for everything that they can contribute. And so, church was an outlet where if you didn't get the respect that you deserved on your job, you could get it at church. You know, and so, when you look at the auxiliaries and organizations within the church and how people participated in those - those groups and how those auxiliaries and the honors and everything that you 00:24:00know, went along with that made people feel appreciated. Certainly, it contributed to peoples's identity and their sense of belonging. So that was very important.

Kylie: Thank you for sharing that – that, but that makes sense, you know why it was - it was a place of acceptance. And thinking kind of along those lines too, growing up, did you find any other outlets you know like at school or anything like that? Do you recall it feeling, you know, like a sense of community or a place where you could start to open up and question things?

Dr. D-W: Well yes, because you know, I, when I think back to my elementary school days and high school. I had teachers who, 00:25:00good teachers who, really sought to recognize and bring out the best in in their students into it. You know, they sought to. They sought to identify in students those things that students would excel at. They recognized our intelligence, you know. And so, when I when I think back to those, those - those elementary school and - and high school, yes. You know, throughout elementary and high school, I had teachers who encouraged 00:26:00me to think for myself. I'm thinking about something that happened when I was in I when I was in grade school. I'm not sure why this came about. But this is during the 70s, obviously, so it makes sense that this happened when it when it did. We were doing a paper, and I might have been, I don't know, I might have been in 7th grade. But I did a paper on why I thought marijuana should be legalized. And I got called to the principal's office, and the principal was very concerned about why I had, you know, written this paper, why that had been my perspective, that 00:27:00marijuana should be legalized. And he, you know, as we were talking, I realized that he thought that this meant that I wanted to smoke marijuana. And you know, and I was, you know my mother worked at my school for part of the time that I was a student as a as a – a teaching assistant. My parents, throughout my entire elementary school and high school years, were very active in the PTA and they came to school to, you know, to check on me and - and they were just very involved with - with the school and so. My - my principal, and 00:28:00his name was Lynn Beckwith Junior. Doctor Lynn Beckwith Junior. He was very concerned that this meant that, you know, I, I - I was planning on smoking weed, or perhaps I was already doing it. And you know, as I explained my position to him. He understood. And it - it wasn't that he necessarily agreed with me, but he - he understood, and he made me feel like, you know, he appreciated my perspective on - on that subject. And - and while I have thought of that over the years, not really, it took this interview that I I'm actually putting it into context of those things that actually encouraged me to speak my mind and to explore topics that might be controversial.

Kylie: No, and that's - I was going to say while you're telling that 00:29:00story that's what I was thinking too. And you know, it also is a good example of, like perspectives don't always have to align and - but having that mutual respect and you know him being able to sit there and understand where you were coming from, I think is really special.

Dr. D-W: Yeah.

Kylie: Where you said you - where did you go to high school?

Dr. D-W: Beaumont High school.

Kylie: Beaumont, ok. And I know you said that your parents were - while growing up, you knew like college was going to be something that they advocated for. Did you remember like - was it something they were purely advocating for? Or did you, you know, start to really want that to be part of your future?

Dr. D-W: Those two things for me just went together. They just, they blended together. And I guess fortunately I never - 00:30:00I never pushed back on that. I - I never had a desire to not to go. So, it was just like one in the same I mean. My - my family, my community, stressed that you're going to college. That this is part of what it means to be an educated citizen. They stressed that I would have more opportunities than they had, you know. And so, it was never a thought in my mind not to, not to it, or even a desire not to go to college.

Kylie: I know you said your mom, she did two years of college. Did she go to college in Saint Louis, or did she go somewhere else?

Dr. D-W: Yes. Well, actually, let me take that back. 00:31:00She went to SIU Carbondale.

Kylie: Ok.

Dr. D-W: For a while. And then she went to Harris teacher, Harris teachers - Harris Stowe Teachers College. At that time, it was not a university. It was a teachers college. For a while - but, but, as I said, she only did two years. And I remember her saying at one point, she wanted to be a teacher. One point she wanted to be a Licensed Practical Nurse. And, you know, to this day – I, I really wish that I knew more of my mother's story. You know, because there's some unanswered questions there. But, suffice it to say, that, for whatever 00:32:00reason, my mother was not able to fulfill some of her goals and some of her dreams. You know, I remember her saying that she dropped out of college because, you know, she wasn't making good grades, and her mother said, “You know, we're not going to continue to try to pay for this if you're not making good grades.” But you know, now I wish that I could have, you know, gotten beneath the layers of that. You know, so, yeah.

Kylie: Well, and I wonder too, I know you said staying in Saint Louis after you had your daughter to have that support system, which makes perfect sense. I wonder too, you know how her experience helped shape your experience...

Dr. D-W: Yeah

Kylie: ...and you know, being able to continue school.

Dr. D-W: And let me tell you, Kylie, there's a whole story. 00:33:00There's a whole story that goes along with my pregnancy. How my - the road to my parents accepting my pregnancy. It was a bumpy road. And especially for my mother and me. And she could not - she, she just could not accept the fact that this was my choice. And I don't know if this is something that you don't want me to go into or not.

Kylie: As long as you are comfortable sharing.

Dr. D-W: Ok.

Kylie: It’s all good.

Dr. D-W: And - and so my parents, you know, felt like 00:34:00my having a child. I was 19 when I got pregnant. And my having a child out of wedlock, at this age - that this was going to just, you know, put a halt to my education and to the plans that they had for me. My father quickly accepted it, but my mother, my mother, just - she was unable to, to accept it. And it - it was a very, very difficult time that really had an impact on my relationship with my mother, that we were never able to completely come back from. My - 00:35:00once you know my daughter was born, you couldn't find grandparents that were that were more doting over a child. So, there was acceptance at, you know, at that point. But there had been a lot of damage done to - to our relationship. And I struggled to help my mother to see, that she and my father had raised me - to, to be independent, to make my own decisions, and that this was one that I would have to - to make you know. But I really think that my mother thought, I - I know that my mother thought, that my having my daughter, and as I said, I did not want to marry her father. You know, she because she tried to force me to marry the father. I did not 00:36:00want to marry him. And, and I didn't. And so, that was something that she thought was just going to send me, you know, down a path of - she actually said this, “You know, now you're just gonna just continue to have babies, you know?” And I'm like, where are you getting? Where are you getting this from? But you know, you know, I came to - I think although I never totally grasped, as I see it, a lot of my mother's experience because I just didn't have all the information to fully grasp it. But as the years went on, I really learned – I, I began to see my, 00:37:00my mother and my father. And through the eyes of an adult, you know. And you go through different stages of adulthood. And so, as I began to see them through those different stages of my own adulthood. I developed more understanding and I realized that, you know, my mother did the best that she could do at that time. You know, so yeah.

Kylie: Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's a good - because I would like to know more about how UMSL - kind of your experience and I know you, you ended up transferring because you wanted to be close to home. Was, was there any particular reason why you had chosen UMSL? Or was it based off 00:38:00of, you know, being in North County and being able to stay close to home?

Dr. D-W: So, so you know, being able to stay close to home, but it also was affordable.

Kylie: Mhmm.

Dr. D-W: It was a university that would provide, you know, a four-year university degree – at, at an affordable price. And that was something else, too, that my mother, when I told my mother I was transferring here because, of course, Hofstra was a private liberal arts university. When I told her I was transferring here – and, and keep in mind this is, this is in 1982. My mom really looked down on UMSL at that, at that point. And, 00:39:00and, you know, she said, “You know, you, you might as well just, you know, be going to, to Harris Stowe or someplace like that.” That's what she actually said then that - I mean, this is the way she thought. This is the way she viewed it. And now that we're we're talking about this. I'm thinking back to the fact that she went to Harris Stowe, you know. And of course, Harris Stowe was a very different place then than it is now. But - so she did not have a very favorable view of, of UMSL, but I did not share that perspective of UMSL. And I was - I had done three semesters at Hofstra and I did 3 1/2 years, lets see. No, 00:40:002 1/2 years here, because I came in my sophomore year. Uh yeah, 2 1/2 years. I finished my bachelor’s degree in 1985 – in, in history. And you know, looking back, this was no small feat. To be able to complete college in a total between Hofstra and UMSL in 5, in 4 1/2 years as a single parent, you know, with a young, a young child. I, I've really enjoyed my days as a student at UMSL and it's interesting because when you think about the fact that I started here 00:41:00as a student in 1982. Then I left - graduated, went off to Cornell. Graduated with my masters - Master's degree in Professional Studies in Africana Studies in 1987. And then I came back to Saint Louis and joined the faculty as a lecturer. Non-tenure track lecturer in 1990 and my intent was to carve out a dissertation topic, do the research and then go back to Indiana – Bloomington, where I started my PhD. Pardon me in 1990 - in 1987 rather and complete it and then go on with my life, 00:42:00you know, never returning to UMSL and thinking that I would, you know, perhaps even go to another city. And so, in, in looking back, it's remarkable that I really ended up spending most of my adult life has been connected to this university, you know.

Kylie: That's – Yeah, no, that's really neat, because - and you're saying all these dates - and, and you didn't really stop a beat though. Like, I feel like you, you had your daughter, got back into school...

Dr. D-W: I did not stop, yeah.

Kylie: ...Just kept going. And I know you graduated with your Bachelor's in History, do you remember - was there anyone like in particular that kind of influenced you to keep going further with your education?

Dr. D-W: Oh, yes, yes. The late John A. Works. 00:43:00WORKS, who was a professor in the history department. He was an Africanist professor. He made, just an indelible mark on, on me in my life - as my professor when I was, was here and he became my friend. He was, you know, one of the professors who really encouraged me. The late George P. Rawicks. RAWICKS - was another professor who just had a major impact on me – and, and, and he – and, and Doctor Works 00:44:00were really supportive of, of me. I was very active in the - what was called the Association of Black Collegians. During those years, I was active, I was a leader in that organization. And during that time, one of the major social struggles that we engaged, was – to, to demand that the university divest its funds from South Africa, and we were successful in, in that. We also engaged the university over the issue of a lack of faculty 00:45:00who were people of color, and African Americans in, in particular. There were when I think about, you know, many of the people who just played a major role in my support system, who were either faculty or staff, so many of them are deceased now. But you know, I, I enjoyed my undergraduate days here and I formed relationships then that, that I still have now. I remember one of the questions that I saw on the script. I think you asked about 00:46:00boyfriends during college...

Kylie: Mhmm.

Dr. D-W: ...and so, when I came to UMSL I was pregnant with my daughter and I - well, no. When I came to UMSL I had, had my daughter. She was three months old, and I met a, a student here who I had a very long relationship with - eight-year relationship with. And he was, you know, he was the only father figure that my daughter had at that, at that time. And I was very particular - after I, after he and I broke up. I did not really let my daughter be exposed to any 00:47:00of the men that I was dating. My, my whole, you know, my, my whole thing was I'm only going to do that if this is a relationship that I'm serious about. Because although this person, this boyfriend that I had for eight years that I met at UMSL was not my husband - as I said, he became such a father figure to her. And so, it wasn't until I met my husband in 1992 that I introduced her to a man. I'm really fortunate, really blessed, that my husband, her stepfather, who she views as her dad. I'm really blessed that he's the type of man that, that he is, because 00:48:00the boyfriend that I had for eight years, he is still very much a part of my daughter's life. He's still very much a part of our, our life. And my daughter is married with three children and the grandchildren, our grandchildren actually go and spend the night, spend days even, sometimes - especially during the holidays with that boyfriend that I had and his partner, you know. And so, it, it's just really been a blessing, yeah.

Kylie: I come from a blended family as well and that - it sounds like very - it's very, very beautiful. It sounds like you're - how you've all been able to just blend together...

Dr. D-W: Yeah.

Kylie: ...and I can resonate with a lot of those feelings, so thank you for sharing that.

Dr. D-W: You're welcome.

Kylie: I guess too, 00:49:00I wanted to ask because I was thinking, when you were talking about your daughter and dating in school. Did you, did you feel like UMSL helped shape kind of your new identity as a mother in any way, or did you really kind of start to grasp, you know, your identity and your sense of self while you were in college? Further, you think, or was it later on in adulthood after?

Dr. D-W: Well, I think it's all part and parcel of you know me coming into adulthood and motherhood. And, you know, I, I think if I were to, to really think about how starting as a transfer student here and I'm so and going throughout my - over my, my life since 00:50:00then, and you know were thinking about how each educational institution where I have matriculated how growing into motherhood and developing as a mother - how those experiences shaped it, and, and even beyond - mean. Yes, I, I mean that's the short answer to you know, to, to the question. There's, so I mean, we're like after 3:00 now. There's so much that we haven't, that we haven't [Laughing] talked about that is so relevant to, you know, to my experience – as, as, as a, a former student, as an alum, and what I've done since - since then. We haven't talked about... 00:51:00You know, I mentioned – we, we talked about religion earlier and I said, you know, I was going to come back to this. I'm not sure what the website says right now, but I'm an ordained itinerant elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church. So, I'm also Reverend Dr. Priscilla Dowden-White. [Laughing] And I pastor a, a church in Northeast Missouri. Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Paynesville, Missouri. A tiny congregation and I'm there on Sundays. And so, I mean, there's a 00:52:00whole story about, you know, my call to ordain ministry that, that I accepted formally in 2018. And it's at that point when, and still full-time here as a professor, I enrolled in Eden Theological Seminary and I completed my Masters of Divinity degree in 2022.

Kylie: You just never stop learning.

Dr. D-W: [Laughs] I've never stopped learning and have always considered myself a, a lifelong learner. Now, you could not have told me though Kylie that I would have gone back to school to do that Masters of Divinity degree. 00:53:00When I finished the PhD in 1996 I said I'm done [both laughing] - with, with my formal education but accepting my call, God had something else in mind. And it's interesting how once I accepted that call - I, I couldn't wait to go back to school, and I marvel at how my academic world and my church world. How God continues to blend those worlds to, together.

Kylie: And while you were talking, I was thinking about you know - it sounds like you're very good, obviously at 00:54:00having a - you know, you went through school, you were a single mom, and now you know, also being a professor and getting a Master's degree at the same time. Thinking about all of that, what has been the most challenging part of your career, and then what has also been the most rewarding part of your career?

Dr. D-W: So, the, the most challenging part of my career happened when I came up for tenure - In the, in the early to mid 2000s. I received tenure in 2004 and I went through an arduous tenure battle. And that really stands out 00:55:00as the most challenging. I'm someone, though Kylie, who tends not to look take a dualistic perspective on things, and by that what I mean - so something that can be, that can present challenges that - we mean different things when you know, we use the word challenges,nd we can use the word challenge to mean opportunity. But when I say challenge, when I'm talking about my tenure struggle, it was traumatic. It caused trauma. But at the same time, I learned from it, and I learned one of the things that I learned, I learned a lot about myself. 00:56:00I learned a lot about my surroundings. And it gave me a new sense of who I am. And so, in that sense, it was both challenging and rewarding. Another challenging period in my life, in the late 1990s, both of my parents became critically ill, terminally ill - at the same time. And they died four months apart in 1999. And I had - my husband and daughter, and I, 00:57:00had taken them into our home the year before they, they both died. That was - that was a very, very challenging period of, of my life to be a caregiver for two parents while still, you know, working in my career. And my department was very supportive, very supportive and that was, that was truly a blessing. That again, was one of those challenges where I can easily see how this was both a challenge that was also rewarding, because 00:58:00I considered it a blessing to have been able to care for my parents, yeah.

Kylie: And I'm sure spending, you know that time together and being in the same household again was, you know, special as well.

Dr. D-W: It was, it was. It was challenging, because my dad had Alzheimer's, and so, you know if, if you know what that does to a person - and we were able to keep him with us until I believe it was maybe like 3 months before he died and so that as, you know, at the very end and...we took him in shortly after. Well, let me see. We took him in at that point. He 00:59:00and my mother were still living in their home and my dad got to a place where he was always trying to get out of the house. And my mother changed the locks on all of the doors. And one day - she, one evening, she called, and she said, “I can't find your father and I looked everywhere.” And so, I started asking, did you look in the closets? Did you look in the basement and all of this? And she says, “I've looked everywhere.” And she says, “The basement door is locked so he could not get down there,” you know. And Kylie - I knew, I knew what had happened, and it was the most frightening experience of my entire life, and I said, Mommy - Chris, my husband, I said, “He'll be sticking his key in the door 01:00:00in about 10 minutes, if that long coming home from work,” I said, and “We'll be there then.” And when we got there - I saw when we were turned, when we turned the corner on their street, I saw the flashing lights of the emergency vehicles. I knew my father had jumped out of the window. I knew it and I was paralyzed with fear. My husband got out of the car, and my mother started screaming, asking him where I was, and, and he told her that I was in the car. And she ran to the car, and she said, “Your father is alive, but he jumped out of that window.” There, there's, there was never an experience that I've had that was more frightening than that, 01:01:00because when we came around the corner, I just knew my dad was dead. Because I knew. I had read enough about Alzheimer's to know that this was an instance where if he got out of that house, and there was only one way for him to get out. It was a miracle. Just a pure, simple miracle. No broken bones. My father, at this point in his life, you know his illness had taken him because he also had cancer. He had a reocurrence of cancer, and so, at this point in his life, he was like 125 pounds...

Kylie: Oh my goodness.

Dr. D-W: No, maybe 135 pounds, because he lost weight after that. 01:02:00135 pounds. And when we got to the hospital, I actually sent my mother to my house because my mother just could, she could not deal with certain things - there's another whole story behind that. But I sent her to my house to be with my daughter and for my daughter to be with her. So, I went to the hospital and when the doctor came out and talked to me. He asked me, you know, exactly what happened. And I explained to him, and he said, so you're saying - you know, they're, they're on the 2nd floor because they, they actually owned a two-family flat. And he says, “So you're telling me that this is about 13, 14 feet 01:03:00from, from the ground?” And I said, “Yes.” He said, “Well, was there a lot of mulch there?” You know, and, and if I said no, “My parents are ghetto or ghetto gardeners, they don't know anything about mulch, you know” [laughing]. I said, “There were bricks there that you know line their, their beds. And he said,, he said, "Ma'am, it's not that I don't believe you.” He said, “But I'm just trying to make sure that, that was the only way he could have gotten out.” I said, “Yes,” I said, “And when we got there, the medics were there with him. He was, he couldn't get up. You know, he couldn't - that was a fortunate thing because it was like 01:04:00at night and I'm glad he wasn't able to physically get up, because he would have just wandered off. So, when my mom found him, that's where she found him. 01:05:00And I can't, you know, even imagine how traumatic that was for her. But the doctor said, “Ma'am, it's not that I don't believe you, but, you know, looking at the fact that your father, you know, is like 135 pounds, he's 70 years old and there’s no broken bones. There's just his elbow is bruised. He says, he says, “We're just trying to make sense of how this is possible, and I said, “Well, I believe that angels caught him.” And he said - I never will forget this, he said, “Ma'am, I don't know about angels, but something caught your father.” And when we brought him home, when I came to pick him up from the hospital and the nurse told me I could get him ready, he literally couldn't walk. 01:06:00It was just like just, just like he was just like, hobbling. And I went, I said, “Sit down, dad,” and I went and got the nurse, and I told her, “She said, “Well I'm not glad that your father can't walk, but it does help us to see that there was some, you know impact there because there are no broken bones or anything, you know,and we're not able to explain this.” And so, they kept him an extra day for observation. And at that point, he moved in with, with us. And shortly thereafter, my mom moved in with us too, because she had diabetes and, it just it just, you know, ravaged every organ in her, her body; in the final analysis, she ended up with cardiomyopathy, and so and congestive heart failure. And so, yeah, we took both of them, them in. 01:07:00And it was challenging, but it was also a blessing. Wouldn't take anything from my journey, Kylie.

Kylie: It, it just sounds like everything has been a full circle experience, and I, I really appreciate that you've shared so much, even intimate details. And I, I'm just really, I guess, intrigued by the fact that you have, you know, you originally left and went to New York and then now you're still living in Saint Louis and teaching at UMSL. And I guess would you - I guess to start in concluding things, do you - would you imagine yourself doing anything else, or did you ever see that this would be what you were doing? 01:08:00Dr. D-W: So, that's an interesting question because I never imagined that I would be an academic for the rest of my life. And I probably shouldn't say this, but it's not even something I've desired to do for the rest of my life. But I never had a vision of what else I would do until I accepted my call to pursue ordained ministry, and so, I feel like I'm transitioning. Now, there's still, there's still work for me to do in the academy. I'm working on a book on the late Margaret Bush Wilson - you can see her picture behind me here. 01:09:00And so, this is, is, is a book that I intend to finish. So, so there's, there's that. But I'm just, you know, I'm just going along for the ride now and I'm, I'm really excited about where, where I am at this at this juncture. I feel more alive in some ways than I have in past, past years. You know, I've got some aches and pains here and there; they remind me of my age sometimes, but other than that, I'm just excited about where I am and anticipating what the future holds.

Kylie: Is there, and is there anything else that you'd like to share? Because I want to give 01:10:00you the opportunity to, but I've - your story has been awesome to listen to.

Dr. D-W: Well, thank you so much. I - we've talked about a lot, and we could talk about a lot more, but I think I, I think I've hit the, the points that I thought you know would be exciting engaging for us to, to talk about.

Kylie: Well, thank you so much, Doctor Dowden-White, I really appreciate it.

Dr. D-W: Okay, well, thank you and I will get that release form to you this week.