UMSL @ 60 - Bobby Norfolk

Audio file

Bobby Norfolk Recording UMSL.mp3

Transcript

Franklin Morris: 00:01:00My name is Franklin Morris. Today is November 29th, 2023 and I'm conducting an interview with an Amsoil alumnus for the UMSL at 60 Anniversary Project. Can you please state and spell your name for the record?

Bobby Norfolk: Bobby Norfolk. B-O-B-Y N-O-R-F-O-L-K

Franklin Morris: Alrighty, Mr. Norfolk. In this interview, we're going to be talking about both you and your time and experiences here at the University of Missouri, St. Louis. I would like to just as a reminder, say that you are being recorded and I do have a release form that we can go over at the end of the session, but we can talk about that later, how are you doing today?

Bobby Norfolk: I'm doing good.

Franklin Morris: Glad to hear it.

Franklin Morris: Before we get started about talking about your time at also, I'd like to get just a bit of background information, just some background questions, if that's all right. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Bobby Norfolk: OK.

Bobby Norfolk: Born in Saint Louis, Missouri, February 25th, 1951 00:02:00and the area is around Inright Ave. near Taylor, which incidentally is the area where the movie Meet Me in Saint Louis was filmed with Judy Garland. Before my time. Though still, that's 00:03:00part of part of my, like a profession.

Franklin Morris: That's awesome. Pardon my lack of professionality there. I love little facts like that. Did you or did you and your family always live in Saint Louis while growing up here, did you move around a bit and then they eventually come to Saint Louis here? Or did you move after growing up here and then come back?

Bobby Norfolk: Well, unlike other friends that I met at Umsl I was not an army brat, so I stayed in Saint Louis my entire life until I was grown and became a full time professional storyteller. That's when I started to travel.

Franklin Morris 00:04:00: Well, that's that's a lovely segue to talk a bit about your education and career did with you with, did you feel prepared for the University of Missouri, St. Louis with like your K through 12 education and through high school?

Bobby Norfolk: You know, it's interesting to note the educational system in Saint Louis Public Schools has changed, some people say for the worse. some say for the better. For me it was the better because William Kottmeyer was Superintendent of public schools when I was in grade school, I started kindergarten at 00:05:00Eugene Field School and Eugene Phil. Incidentally, because you're like minutiae. He was a children's poet and toymaker. In Saint Louis and so Eugene Field School is where I started K through 2nd grade and on the back of all the textbooks. William Kottmeyer said reading for comprehension and me in primary school that were, I asked the teacher. “What is that word?” And she explained it and then introduced me to this book called a dictionary. And so I started looking up things that William Kottmeyer had said throughout the book and his research he had done as far as my little Kate through second grade, mind could go. And then I took a deeper dive later on and what public education is all about. So basically what happened was that my reading potential came very early, didn't go to preschool. So my schooling actually started at Eugene Field in kindergarten. And my passion for reading.

Frankin Morris 00:06:00: That's amazing, I'd say right off the bat, sorry. Sometimes with my reactions, I lose the ability speech with just all of a as so young an age, approaching reading. As a historian, I've always advocate for reading books, reading books is amazing. So it's always great to hear that.

Frankin Morris: The next thing was college. Something you all you really thought about while you were growing up or did something kind of inspire that to seek that higher education?

Bobby Norfolk: You know, it's interesting to note, even before I even knew what a college or university was, I have to tell you to digress. I studied. I was so embarrassed and dashcam as a kid that I talk like that and so kids made fun of me, of course. So I retreated into books and I thought if I had a book in my face, 00:07:00nobody would ask me to talk. I was wrong because I had these people walking up and down the halls of my school, and they were called teachers. So these teachers put me in drama class Glee club called Talent shows push recitals. And whenever I perform or recite it, I wouldn't study it. Put the book down. Left stage started, started again and so it was what I found out later through teachers meter, rhythm and rhyme would help me stop stuttering. And then by 10th grade meditation knocked it completely out-of-the-box. The starting finally disappeared, but it meter, rhythm and rhyme, poetry and prose and just reciting musical lyrics. Whenever I sang, it wouldn't stutter. Just like that country singer Mel Tillis, some people know about him, some don't. 00:08:00But he sings smooth as silk and he stutters when he puts down the guitar in his interview. And so it wasn't until much later on when I started attending Charleston, the high school. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Sumner High School?

Franklin Morris: Unfortunately, I'm not it right it rings a bell. I grew up in Saint Louis it, it rings a bell, I’ve definitely heard it before.

Bobby Norfolk: Ohh dude, it's home of the bulldog. [Barkin Noises]

Franklin Morris: That that may have been where I heard. It from the floor because I went to, I went to Truman State University. You had a bulldog mascot and some people would mention I think the high school with a similar mascot.

Bobby Norfolk: Exactly. I have done some performances at Truman State. It's just north of Moberly up around the Iowa border.

Frankin Morris: Yeah, you'll go North from Moberly and stop when it gets cold.

Bobby Norfolk: 00:09:00Been there many times. However, I digress, because Sumner High School is the oldest African American high school West of the Mississippi River, and it's named after a white abolitionist, Charles Sumner, who was beaten into unconsciousness on the US Senate floor because he made some disparaging remarks about sinister Preston Bros.

Franklin Morris: Now that I have heard of.

Bobby Norfolk: And Andrew Butler and so they named his school after him and some of the high schoolers where I met some master teachers who propelled me to go on to higher education.

Franklin Morris: Awesome. And with that was when you started looking at opportunities in higher education was UMSL, our did you look at other colleges or go to other colleges before landing on UMSL? Or was UMSL your first first pick out of the gate?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:10:00I had no idea also existed, born and raised in Saint Louis University, or what? And so when I was a senior at some high school I knew about the schools in Washington DC, Howard University, for example, in DC.

Bobby Norfolk: And I wanted to work for the Justice Department and so I put in applications to George Washington University and Howard University, but did not get accepted. But then what happened was that, UMSL made its presence known because I was in a scholarship program competition for scholarship program through the Danforth Foundation. And it was for $10,000 to attend a university in Saint Louis. And so the competition involved 300 students who were seniors in high schools around the Saint Louis area, and the Danforth Foundation was going to give away 13 fellowships. 00:11:00And the competition was done at Saint this university and I was one of the 13 and don't ask me why they chose 13 because some people think it's an unlucky number. But then if you're Freemason then 13 is a very powerful number. To the Illuminati, but again, I digress because.

Bobby Norfolk: What happened was that I wanted to go to Washington University, St. Louis first, but my counselor said $10,000 and WashU. Is it? It's not going to work. Even then, WashU always just had this reputation of the school where.

Franklin Morris: You better have won the lottery to pay for our tuition.

Bobby Norfolk: 00:12:00Yes, you have. They have deep pockets to go to WASHU. And so I said, okay I would I love journalism. And So what about, you know, I'm just all over the map with my thinking there. And I said University of Missouri, Columbia has one of the best journalism schools in America. And ohh Mr. Norfolk, it has to be a Saint Louis school. And I said “They said what about University of Missouri? Saint Louis, I said who?” And I said, “OK, let's do that.” And my goodness was I surprised. This is like the mini Harvard of the Midwest.

Franklin Morris: Oh yeah.

Franklin Morris: It's a--It's a very beautiful campus. It's very big, at least.

Bobby Norfolk: Well, it's reputation preceded itself and so excuse my ignorance of not knowing about this university when I was a senior in high school or something because.

Bobby Norfolk: These professors took no prisoners in my freshman year I said Dang.

Franklin Morris: 00:13:00That's a that's a wonderful segue into our next question of how was your, what were your perceptions of UMSL or how did you perceive UMSL before coming here and like your first time on campus?

Bobby Norfolk: People told me you better up your game before you come to home, so dude. And So what I had to do, my GPA was not where it should have been. And so I took two semesters and went to Forest Park Community College. And at Forest Park Community College I, it was my like entry into higher education.

And I began to see, and I needed that very badly to to make that Segway, as you said between.

High school and the university and Forest Park Community College did it for me. And so after that one semester. Here I was founding, finding myself out here. The address used to be 80 O1 Natural Bridge Road and the mascot used to be the Riverman. 00:14:00That has all changed.

Franklin Morris: I'd say I, I feel like I would Definitely know about the Rivermen. But if we had a mascot.

Bobby Norfolk: It was not politically correct and it was very misogynistic. But it's the same thing with the it is and the address is different too. But again there you are.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's kind of this and correct me if I'm wrong. This kind of like outside of the box experience almost completely out of your comfort zone, new place you didn't even know it was here, but they have nothing. . .

Bobby Norfolk: Most of Saint Louis didn't know it was here. I mean, the place used to be a Country Club.

Franklin Morris: Well, that's true.

Franklin Morris: That's true. That's true. I was about to ask. So when when did you attend? And so when did you first start coming to school here?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:15:00My freshman year here started in September of 1971.

Bobby Norfolk: And the administration building was the old Country Club.

Franklin Morris: I was about to say that had to be that's within the first decade of UMSL being founded still so only I'd say 8 years old then.

Bobby Norfolk: It was at least, yeah, it gives a new meaning to old school.

Franklin Morris: Were you the first member of your family to really pursue higher education?

Bobby Norfolk: I was probably the third on my father’s side. He was born in Covington, TN which is a suburb of Memphis and his uncle, my great uncle Spencer Lewis. Motherfolk. Incredible man. [ 00:16:00} He during his tenure was a principal in a school in Memphis, TN. And then in 1948, when he and my dad moved to Saint Louis, Uncle Spencer became an accountant for dental Trust Company bank and Trust Company. And then he was also the Deacon. And they are counting for a new State Baptist Church where we attend.

Bobby Norfolk: And then on my mother's side, my cousin Katie Harper Wright became a PhD in education by attending Southern Illinois University Edwardsville, and she went on to have her name affixed to schools and she became very prominent.

Franklin Morris: Very prominent name among schools in that area.

Bobby Norfolk: Yeah. When you when you get a school named after you. You you've arrived.

Franklin Morris: You made it. You can say you've made it. Name the school after you.

Bobby Norfolk: 00:17:00Dollar number three to go to college.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely. And what was family life like for you? What was your family like? Did you come from, like, did you have a lot of siblings like? What your parents do kind of like most?

Bobby Norfolk: Mom and Dad be got three boys and I was the middle boy, so there was Wilbert, who was first, and then I was second. And then my brother Paul was third. So growing up around that area around in right in Kensington Ave. We didn't have a lot of money. Dad worked for sticks. Barn Fuller, now known as Dillard's. And he ran an elevator. And this was before Otis came up with the button elevator. So he was an elevator operator. 00:18:00Six parent Fuller located on 6th and Washington Ave. and if you would run people up and down these elevators all day long on the 6th from the ground floor to the 6th floor and. Mom worked for a Jewish confliction Mary out in Williston Ave, which is West Saint Louis. And so we got a lot of mileage out of mom working for this confectionery because Dave Dean gave me and my two brothers full. You know, we just went amok. We went into this confectionery, he said, boy, whatever you want, you want sandwiches. I have to make that stay away from the butcher, I don't want to cut your hand off, but if you want a big sandwich, I'll make that, get some potato chips, candy, popcorn, soda pop.

Bobby Norfolk: And it was like Christmas every day when we went over there and dad got these big discounts at six, four and four. So we got a Magnavox television, one of the first people in the neighborhood to get television. 00:19:00But we didn't know we were poor, quote unquote. We were just adequate. Growing up in our Saint Louis. It's just the way life was, yes.

Franklin Morris: With that, how did your parents feel about you wanting to go to college to pursue that higher education?

Bobby Norfolk: They thought it was very admirable and mom and dad had not gone past grade school, and so even my two brothers did not go to college, and so I, being the one that stepped out there into the great unknown. Attending UMSL was a master achievement for my immediate family.

Franklin Morris: OK.

Bobby Norfolk: And they had no idea what I didn't know what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. 00:20:00And, you know, and then I found out later when I became politically conscious, I did not want to work for the FBI and the Justice Department because there was this dude. Director of the FBI, Jacob Hoover, he was mean. Dude. Ohh my goodness, he created a system that methodically destroyed the black movement, the civil rights movement, he said that doctor Martin Luther King was one of a major threat to the security of the United States. Just to give you some idea.

Franklin Morris: I've read the files I I've read some of those files because I did a study.

Bobby Norfolk: Oh yeah.

Bobby Norfolk: To freeing up information, yeah.

Franklin Morris: On J. Edgar Hoover. And how he was basically crazy. That was the conclusion I've read I've read through some of his journals and I'm like this, he's saying that?

Bobby Norfolk: And the man was dangerous, and he even made and found out he made this truce between the five Mafia families and they gave each other license to operate with impunity 00:21:00and so basically I wanted to find out more about what America is all about when I attended them. So and so I became co-founder of the Association of Black Collegians here on the UMSL campus. And it was the organization that wanted to push for African American studies and all the colleges and colleges and universities throughout Saint Louis. But it was around 1968, ABC had started at Washington University in Saint Louis and they were the first ones to get African American studies in the Saint Louis colleges and universities, and then home, so was not far behind.

Franklin Morris: And that's a part of the founding member, did you, did you help fund that organization as a student here at UMSL? Bobby Norfolk: I did. Franklin Morris: 00:22:00What was that like? And I can be a bit more elaborate with that question, but in the there had to be a lot of resistance, a lot of pushback from the things that you were trying to do, the things you were advocating for. And did you see that a lot on campus? What was that experiencing that? What was that like?

Bobby Norfolk: First experience that pushed back, when I was at Forest Park community College. When I first joined the Association of Black Legions on that campus and I found out that there are chapters all over the Saint Louis community except here at UMSL. And so when I made that transition to the UMSL campus, I wanted to be Co founder of ABC, along with this other group of we call it, we called ourselves the Central Committee. We studied a little bit of Marxism, a little bit of socialism.

We are, we're all admitted. And this was not ABC people talking about reading miles. They don't. The Red Bull. This was my college professors here at UMSL 00:23:00hello saying you need to read Marx and Lenin and Mao say don't and find out what's going on in the world outside of the world.

Franklin Morris: With reading those books, how hard did that hammer really come down when the United States clamped up in The Cold War?

Bobby Norfolk: My, my, my, the the first, you know, during the 50s after World War Two, it was Eugene McCarthy. He was the one that was outing people, right or wrong for everybody was a communist that he didn't like.

Until he brought himself down. But then there were the groups that were around called the Hard Hats.

And these were ultra conservative construction workers that wore the hard hats. And then there was young Americans, freedom by AF that attended colleges throughout the United States. 00:24:00And then there was the John Birch Society that was Ultra Conservative. One group was always at war either physically or politically, with activists the white counterpart of ABC was SDS students for a Democratic society and the weatherman. These were all white groups that based themselves out of University of California, UCLA and the Berkeley campus of University of California and Bay Area, California.

Franklin Morris: And did they have a presence on UMSL?

Bobby Norfolk: They had a small presence in the weather in the small prisons. They were not huge like on The West Coast or the East Coast.

Franklin Morris: 00:25:00But still enough to notice that there was resistance from it.

Bobby Norfolk: Just enough to make their presence noon, yes.

Franklin Morris: That's really incredible. Being able to say that you co-founded it and helped set that up here. Given that, did you with your time, and also since you went from Community College to also did you do a two year 10 year here at council or did you go for a four year program?

Bobby Norfolk: It was four years, and So what happened it gets convoluted at this point because I got the damn for fellowship. It was for four years and so also I had an internship being. Journalist, student and a historian student. So I was a student of journalism and history. So I declared a double major and my first internship with Proud magazine. 00:26:00And so I started working with this magazine that was started by Ernie McMillan, who was then or running back for the Saint was football Cardinals. Yes, yes, indeed. Saint Louis had a professional NFL football team until Phoenix, AZ stole them away. And so Ernie McMillan owned proud magazine in the second year. I was with the Saint Louis Sentinel newspaper and it was owned by Howard, the woods and Woods Hall here on campus was named after him. The third internship was with St. Lucentio newspaper owned by Donald Suggs, Donald Suggs is a dentist and he owned this magnificent newspaper called Saint Louis American. 00:27:00It has national recognition based out of Saint Louis, and I became an investigative reporter for them. However I was in my senior year here on campus around 1975 and the whole political climate had changed in America. Jacob Hoover had done an excellent job of destroying the the Black Messiah quote UN quote, as they were saying because the Black Panther Party was destroyed. There was a national Black Panther Party for self-defense, Jackal who would destroy them. Then there was this issue in Chicago where Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were murdered while they were in their beds by the Cook County Police, and it was the FBI. There was implicit in that Operation Malcolm X had been assassinated in 1965, more as the King had been assassinated in 1968. Robert Kennedy was assassinated in that same year in 68. 00:28:00And so people were saying there's a vendetta out for activists and so the movement died and people who are activists in the Weatherman and Students for Democratic Society, they became yuppies. Young urban professionals, so they cut their beards. They shaved off their hair, they put on Brooks brothers suits and neckties, and they started working in the corporate world and I saw everything become fallow and all the things that I was seeing in terms of black activism and white activism. And then somebody said that Boby at the Gateway Arch in downtown Saint Louis, they're looking for some National Park Rangers to be season seasonal Park Rangers, and here I thought the Gateway Arch was some local Saint Louis monument. 00:29:00Had no idea it was part of the National Park Service system. And I had no idea what the National Park Ranger was, except for seeing Smokey the bear. And he wasn't a National Park Ranger Baron. He worked for US Forestry department. Thank you very much. Only you can prevent forest fires. US forestry. Totally different operation than the national mining units. And so I started that I stopped out of UMSL because I had a real job. How is your battery doing?

Franklin Morris: Well, we're battery, the battery is alright, I'm just making sure that we're it's working the way mostly.

Bobby Norfolk: OK, so I had no idea where the National Park Service was, but I wanted to find out because I wanted a gig. I wanted a real job. And so I got the job after one hour of being interviewed by the Chief Ranger. 00:30:00One hour interview and I impressed him I guess because of my historical background. Here at him. So I let him know that I was a major contender when he came to U.S. history. But again, I need to digress again. Because I did stand up comedy for a while. I would stand up comedian moment.

Franklin Morris: You just--you just did everything.

Bobby Norfolk: I threw everything against the wall. See what sticks.

Franklin Morris: No, that's, that's incredible. I love talking and interviewing and hearing about people who just. Did absolutely everything that they could whenever they could because they have some of the best stories.

Bobby Norfolk: And so I became a stand up comedian and whenever big name Max came through Saint Louis, I had only crafted my comedic timing and I got to open souls for people like 00:31:00Lou Rawls and B.B. King and Ahmed Jamal, Roberta Flack and People Bryson and a lot of others. But then I thought that OK, I need to do something else other than stand up comedy. And so I discovered the Black Repertory Theater of Saint Louis. Which was founded by Ron Holmes and I was in eight plays with the Black Repertory Theatre. So whenever the black Rep was dark, I would go and do stand up comedy and I started working as a park Ranger in 1976. The old courthouse. I have to, you know, you need to see the bigger picture here. So because the old courthouse, which is across street from the Arch, is the administration building of the Gateway Arch. So three days a week, I would work at the arch two days a week I would work at the old courthouse. The old courthouse is known for the Dred Scott decision, but I found out that I need to still perform comedy and theater and history 00:32:00as most students declare is boring and I did research. We're going to schools and say how many of you guys, what do you guys think about? Boring something I didn't live in this with. Stand up comedy and with theater and became a sought after Park Ranger. And when tours would come down, the teachers would ask for Boby.

Franklin Morris; That's that's incredible. And did you feel like your time here at UMSL really prepared you for that professional world that you were stepping into?

Bobby Norfolk: You did immensely. I am standing on the shoulders of these professors here at UMSL, but see the drama continues because it always bugged me that I only had 45 hours left before I got my degree here at UMSL, but I was making so much money at the time during stand up comedy and working as Park Ranger and working with the Black Rep, I didn't have time for UMSL. 00:33:00It kept invading my dreams.

Franklin Morris: So did you take a break from so for a while like all these other things? And then eventually come back to finishing degree?

Bobby Norfolk: I did. So I as people say, you know you didn't drop out of college. You stopped out because.

Franklin Morris: Ohh.

Bobby Norfolk: Because Professor Lewis Vertis was my counselor here on campus. And I went back to him and said that Professor Gerties, how many hours do I have before I can get my history degree? And he said, well, at this point you have 45 credits you need to fulfill. And I can work with you to give you a degree in general studies. 00:34:00Yes, I'll do it. So I went back and did the 45 credit hours, got the degree in general studies from home so and but then the drama continues because Chancellor at the time. I think it was during my, I think Blanche too. He had already retired to. The name Blanche Touhill Performing Arts Center is put on that magnificent building across campus.

Franklin Morris: Right. Right. That's Blanche too. He was definitely named. That's thrown around a lot on UMSL when looking at UMSL's history, yes.

Bobby Norfolk: And So what happened was that I had heard about her legacy, and then there were two other chances when I was here. And so I continue to go back and forth, just doing work at Thomas Jefferson Library and at the Mercantile Library because the National Park Service had an agreement with mercantile library used to be downtown Saint Louis. 00:35:00And then they moved out to Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Library here on campus. And so whenever I needed to do research, that would be the first place I would go.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely, absolutely.

Franklin Morris: How has your time here also really prepared you for all these amazing things that you've done? Or was there anybody here in among the faculty or students that really inspired you to keep pushing forward as such an inspirational figure yourself?

Bobby Norfolk: There were always people who I remember very vividly as is helping me on this campus. And So what happened was that I would go back and just sometimes I would visit the campus just to see if these professors were still around and if not, try to keep up with them some kind of way, but the main thing is that I just fell in love with the campus. It's layout and design, and even before I was here, long before the millennial center over there was built. 00:36:00I go and I come on campus now and can't recognize the place. Express Scripts was nowhere insight on campus at the time.

Franklin Morris: When you first came here, it was still the country club building, right?

Bobby Norfolk: The building was still the administration building, exactly.

Bobby Norfolk: And could we pause for a minute? Absolutely. It's. I'm trying to think. (Brief pause in recording lasting a couple of minutes)

Bobby Norfolk: Probably my biggest influence on the UMSL campus was former Chancellor Thomas George. 00:37:00And not only was he an excellent chancellor, but he had a playlist of about 200 swinging jazz songs, and he played piano and one day he asked me if he could play behind some of my poetry and I did some gigs and I said of course, I'd be honored. And after about maybe 10 sessions I said we could take this show on the road, doctor George, he said. Well, I have this other job called Chancellor of Home, so that would stop that from happening to me, but it was interesting because I would go to his house and we would perform. We would rehearse for performances. And it was an excellent match. The chemistry just gelled perfectly well. 00:38:00And because I had so many other projects I was working on that he had note of. I got ambushed by Tom George. This letter came to me in the mail one day, offering me the honorary degree of humane letters. And he talked with President Chao about this. And so I got this letter that he was going to give me an honorary doctorate in humane letters, which I graciously accepted. He said there's only one catch you have to do the commencement address to. For Arts and Sciences, I say I'm with that I can. I can handle that too. Yeah, always a catch. And so that was May 2018 that that happened.

Franklin Morris: Incredible. Truly incredible. And we kind of touched on this earlier, we kind of touched on this a little earlier with your talk about the founding of like the Black Collegiate group here at UMSL pushing for African American rights and African American studies here. 00:39:00Were there and I'm sure there's, I have no doubt there's a list, but were there any particularly unpleasant or challenging experiences that you had on campus?

Bobby Norfolk: Unpleasant or challenging experiences? Yes, there were. One of the most memorable was that there was a white professor who taught African American studies on campus and at midterm. I got a D, I got a cricket mini, African American studies like God I'm cofounder of the Association of Black and these this is an outrage. Don't burn this camps down. Then I got calm down. Chill. Go ask for a meeting and find out what's going on. Boy, it was enlightening he said, 00:40:00Mr. Norfolk in the final exam essay, you talked about your experiences of the African American experience, but you didn't say one thing about what I was teaching in class. In the essay, you didn't say one thing about what you were learning and the required readings and the essay. No, I guess you're right. So I went back and reflected on that. And so I was just pouring out my own feelings on the essay. But she didn't want to hear it.

Franklin Morris: You wanted to hear it with that, history was happening right. They were on the front lines of it.

Bobby Norfolk: That didn't faze him.

Franklin Morris: Oh, wow. The university professors in the 60s and stone.

Bobby Norfolk: The mini Harvard of the Midwest.

Frankin Morris: The stalwart, unfazed. “We're not here for your back story. Tell us what you learned.”

Bobby Norfolk: He let me know in the final--he he he still he took--like I said these professors took no prisoners. I got a B plus. You wouldn't get me an A, I said. OK, fine.

Franklin Morris: 00:41:00One of those that never gave out A's.

Bobby Norfolk: Yeah, but that is memorable. But it was so interesting just to be able to go to a commuter campus. I had no idea what a commuter campus was. It's where there are no dormitories you leave campus and you go home or you go to an apartment, but you do not stay on this campus. And so it was. It was nice to go back to where all my stuff is and not having to pack up and live on the campus with perfect strangers for two semesters.

Franklin Morris: Not uproot your life and then for just a short amount of time, then go back so with.

Bobby Norfolk: Exactly. Exactly.

Franklin Morris: We touched on this a bit earlier, how you kind of took a break from school and then came back how long was that break in between? When did you come back to finish your degree?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:42:00I was a National Park Ranger at the Gateway Arch and Old Warehouse of 1976 to 1986 and then I retired from the National Park Service after 10 years, became full time, professional storyteller in January 7. And so that propelled me from 87 up until about 1995. And then I kept feeling these pains about I need a college degree. I don't. No, no, let me rephrase that. I didn't need the college degree. I wanted the college degree. 00:43:00There's a vast difference in those two things. I wanted it. I didn't need it because I was. And by the time I hit 21 years old, I was already making $25,000 a year.

Franklin Morris: You already had life experience. They didn't. They weren't even looking for the degree.

Bobby Norfolk: Exactly and so talking from distant memory now, but I think Professor Curtis and I got together in 2004 and then I got the Bachelor of General Studies, 2005.

Franklin Morris: So you've really been around UMSL’s campus for it's just about its entire existence?

Bobby Norfolk: About its entire existence, exactly, I can't get away from this place, he reminds me of Godfather 3 of the movie when Al Pacino playing Michael Corleone. On that, he wanted to get out of the business and he said every time I try to get out, they pull me back in.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So that you probably have a really good perspective of just how UMSL has changed and shifted over these over the years? Would you care to elaborate on that a bit more? Maybe some noticeable changes that you've seen from your times here, from your time as an undergraduate and finishing your degree in the latter 2000 or the early 2000?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:44:00Yes, yes. As a matter of fact, I have two friends, Anthony D’Agostino, who attended them so and he's gone on to great things. And then Patrick Goodell, who attended him. So and they both agreed that this is one of the best run campuses in Saint Louis, and probably in throughout the Midwest, and they have no regrets about attending on so and my brother-in-law, who later became Professor of music at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, VA. He taught music here on campus. In his first year while he was when he got his doctorate. He didn't get his doctorate here. He got his. He got a doctorate at University of Hawaii you very much. I'm a little. But he loved his time on campus, and he thought this was one of the best experiences he has had in higher education.

Franklin Morris: 00:45:00Absolutely. So kind of shifting gears here to kind of talk about your career and involvement in that. You're a professional storyteller, right? How has UMSL really both inspired and influenced your career? I know we kind of touched on this a lot of it already.

Bobby Norfolk: No, we haven't gone down the rabbit hole deep enough, Sir. Let's burrow some more, because I did not seek storytelling, it sought me. I'm minding my own business as a National Park Ranger at the arch, and so two people, one being Lynn Rubright, who is called the godmother storytelling in Saint Louis, and then Dr. Ron Turner, who was then working at University of Missouri, Columbia for the President's office there. 00:46:00They wanted to start a storytelling festival in Saint Louis because the Renaissance and storytelling started in the mid 1970s in Jonesboro, Tennessee. It's little town in northeast Tennessee and it's in a valley and it's surrounded by the Great Smoky Mountains, the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Appalachian Range. And the Renaissance and storytelling started there. And so these two people, Lynn Rubright and Ron Turner once just on the festival in Saint Louis. And they wanted to figure out what venue would they use, and they chose the arch. The museum of history, there was, then called the Museum of Westward expansion underneath the arch. 00:47:00And so in 1979 some of the best storytellers in America came to my work site, and here I thought storytelling was taking a big picture book and telling babies Once Upon a time. There were three pigs. Daddy loves you. It's a professional art from his ancient. And historians, you know, whether you come from the African tradition of the Creole or you come from the European tradition of of the Troubadour and the Bard, storytelling was where the knowledge and the history of each culture was housed and then given perpetuation. These storytellers showed me that. And I saw, oh my goodness, these stand up comedy. Here's pathos. Here's theater. It's all wrapped up in the story. 00:48:00So I asked the Chief Ranger if I could take off on Monday and Tuesday and work in the school.And hold and craft my storytelling skills and then work for the arts. No courthouse Wednesday through Sunday, he said. Go for it.

Franklin Morris: So with that, with that, did you so you took off Mondays or Tuesdays to come work at UMSL?

Bobby Norfolk: No, not to work in schools to work in school. Yeah. Now the Saint Louis storytelling festival was owned and operated by the COMSOL Continuing Education Office. To be clear about that, it wasn't owned and operated by the Gateway Arch Central Park service. It was owned by the Continuing Education Office at UMSL. And for a couple of decades, that was true. And then when UMSL started having some financial difficulties, then they passed on the legacy of the storytelling festival to University of Missouri Extension division, which was still part of UMSL. 00:49:00University of Missouri system rather and then when extension wanted to move on, it was then passed on to the Saint Louis Public County Library system.

Franklin Morris: Which is still kind of affiliated with UMSL.

Bobby Norfolk: Still still kind of affiliated, so there's all this connection the interweaving threads however, also started the whole process.

Franklin Morris: How would you say UMSL's culture, like the culture of UMSL that's been built up of openness, of acceptance, how would you say that got started because you were there at the beginning? One of the people on the front lines. How would you say and how do you feel about how that culture has kind of developed and grown from since your time?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:50:00Here this campus has always been a major contender and some people prefer coming here to WASHU or Saint Louis University. You know, forget about the tuition difference. They felt that UMSL could hold his own against SLU and WASHU. And so it was that energy that this campus gave off from the administration and the staff.

That sort of like a concentric circle. That energy is like the metaphor, is like throwing a Pebble into a pond and watching the concentric circles expand. This is what UMSL did with students and drawing on all of these high schools from Saint Louis. So it wasn't just certain high schools that drew their students to umm, so it was all high schools. 00:51:00And then outside of Saint Louis, I'm finding out some people weren't even from Missouri that attended campus here. And and so I saw that energy and how it was sustaining itself, the campuses sustained itself.

Franklin Morris: It's been, it must seem like it's come a long way since the time where you've had to advocate for a lot of these things and now it's not only incorporated, it's celebrated.

Bobby Norfolk: Exactly 60 years this year is. That what we're doing this for 60s.

Franklin Morris: That whole section devoted to morals and ethics and talking about how UMSL has shaped that. But I think it'd be more correct to say that you've helped shape UMSL's morals and ethics in certain ways with the efforts that you've talked about here, being co-founder to the--Pardon me. I can't recall my short-term memory isn't the best.

Bobby Norfolk: 00:52:00The Association of Black Collegians.

Franklin Morris: Yes, the Association of the Black Collegians here and I believe they're still active, after they've become reactive after the whole, anything that was activists got shut down.

Bobby Norfolk: Right. They're like the phoenix. They are now the associated black legions.

Franklin Morris: Yes, absolutely. So I think I wanna hone in a bit more about what that experience was like for you, not only trying to Co found, but being a student and trying to Co found a major organization where I'm sure that some faculty backed up and helped, but I had to imagine it was very challenging and very difficult?

Bobby Norfolk: Yes, I had several counselors whose names don't come to mind now, but they were counselors who were very active in political movement because during that time I was on campus, 00:53:00there was, I mean, all hell broke loose when Doctor King was assassinated the 68 and then what happened by 70-71 was that the Black Panther Party for self-defense became huge core snick all these human rights organizations and then the weatherman as I mentioned and students for democratic society, the Vietnam War was huge during that time.

Bobby Norfolk: And so it was not so much black students as it was white students I found burning their draft cards. Do you know what a draft card is? They were burning them and they were said that I dare you to send me to jail. And so when the authorities came after them, they kept going north to Canada.Franklin Morris: And were a lot of these groups that you've mentioned active on campus at the time?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:54:00They were. They were. Miss, please, was a hot bed of political activity during that time. And I was, I don't know how this happened. Maybe the Force was with me, but I didn't get a draft card. I was 2 S student deferment.

Franklin Morris: Maybe they just decided you had too much business to take care of here as it was before sending you over to seas, because as it was, it seemed like you had your hands full.

Bobby Norfolk: I did. I was kind of distracted with other things to be going fighting in Vietnam.

Franklin Morris: Speaking of that, you probably witnessed first hand a lot of the--a lot of how a lot of colleges, especially like UMSL rose up as anti--part of the anti war movement with the Vietnam War Did you witness any of those rallies, any of those activist events on campus or were there any such events on campus?

Bobby Norfolk: 00:55:00There were rallies on every major campus in Saint Louis. Not just the four year institutions, but also the junior colleges, Forest Park, Merrimack and Flow Valley and then in Forest Park there was a bunch of rallies always going on there, especially on a place called Hippie Hill. Sounds familiar? Let me explain, Hippie Hill, because it is the area between the municipal opera, the Boathouse restaurant, and the Saint Louis Zoo. There's this pavilion that's on top of this hill, part of this world's fair. And so during the 70s it was called Hippie Hill because that's where all the hippies would come and they would smoke pot and they would have rallies and they got dumped that, but the--the movement was always going on, 00:56:00you know, at some point, not just in Forest Park like Hippie Hill, but throughout Saint Louis, up and down streets. And it was always on the news. Well except for riots interesting to note, when Doctor King was assassinated when all the big huge events happened that were major riots in every city except Saint Louis. Saint Louis always stayed quiet for major riots even when Rodney King was beaten on camera. In Los Angeles, there were no riots. And then Ferguson, Mike Brown happened. 00:57:00And all hell broke loose in Saint Louis. And it took that for Saint Louis to give recognition as a place where police brutality was running rampant. Saint Louis had a street, has a street called Delmar Blvd. You know when I was growing up, 99.9% of all African Americans were in north of Delmar, 99.9% of all whites were South of Delmar and that they want more divide.

Franklin Morris: The divide, yeah.

Bobby Norfolk: Sounded. And so that became international news, not national, international. I was at a gig for two weeks in Taiwan, China. And in the hotel, all of the television was done in Mandarin and Cantonese, except CNN. CNN News came on his foot. I watched all evening long when I was in the hotel room and. What you led the news? Ferguson, MO.

Franklin Morris: Had to be one of those things for, like, “Come on guys, I leave for two weeks. For two weeks and that's when you start. 00:58:00We couldn't have waited till I got back home?”

Bobby Norfolk: My clients in Taiwan did not want me to come back home and they were watching CNN too and they said I missed an awful. You sure you want to go back to Saint Louis? You’ve been watching CNN? I say “Yes, I am. No, but I have to go home.” I gotta click those Ruby Reds sneakers. No place like home. And I live in university city. And did in 2012 and from my house I could see smoke rising up from Ferguson and helicopters constantly going around.

Franklin Morris: I remember that time too. I don't live too far from here either. Live in Ferguson. Not too far it was--

Bobby Norfolk: 00:59:00Right, young, young, and it haunted me too, because I knew what existed between Ferguson and my house. So, and I said “I hope they don't burn my campus down.”

Franklin Morris: So there is a lot of tension. There's always seems to be also seem to be like the site for a lot of activism, but at the same time kind of a safe haven for activists to go to kind of escape a lot of the--

Bobby Norfolk: It was.

Franklin Morris: --to be polite, turbulent atmosphere of society in America at the time?

Franklin Morris: Indeed. And kind of ask in what ways or how did UMSL really construct that atmosphere, both accepting of activism while also being safe for activists to be out in the open? Be had these beliefs.

Bobby Norfolk: A lot of the professors were activists when I went to this school first time. I mean they weren't ultra conservative. This was not like Oral Roberts University. You know, everybody's conservative and meek and mild. 01:00:00These professors made some noise. You wasn't just the students.

Franklin Morris: So kind of it would be correct to say right out the gate, UMSL has always been advocating for the betterment of everybody and inclusion of everybody right off of its founding.

Bobby Norfolk: Yes, exactly. And that's when I learned the difference between civil rights and human rights. Civil rights is what Doctor King fought for. Human rights is what we all who are politically conscious fight for.

Franklin Morris: And and would you say UMSL played a major role in helping you make that distinction and helping influence your political views in that way?

Bobby Norfolk: It did, it did, and it wasn't so much class. It was during class when these issues would come up and that's why I majored in 01:01:00history, political science and journalism. Oh, those were my favorite subjects here on campus and and because I knew that that could fuel my zest for knowledge. And so one of the professors said, become a walking question mark. I took that metaphor and ran with it.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely. Now would that be the history professor or the journalism professor?

Bobby Norfolk: Ah, journalism.

Franklin Morris: So UMSL had a very politically active atmosphere at the times you were here. And the times you've come back here, but you were also most likely and correct me if I'm around when they started opening up culturally and pushing for more international focus. 01:02:00And I was wondering if you could maybe give--offer some insight and elaboration on maybe the beginnings of pushing for more international inclusion on universities.

Bobby Norfolk: One of those international collaborations was when I went to Taiwan, China. That you can be depressed because in Taiwan, which is having some issues right now with Beijing, Taiwan does not want to be part of mainland China and they call themselves Taiwan, the Republic of China or sea. But there was a woman there, there is a woman there Joy Wung. And she started the Taiwan International School. And it was a private school all over Taiwan. And so I was invited over several times to teach storytelling to her students and her staff. And then I thought of an idea of having a sort of a uh ambassadorship. 01:03:00That would bring Taiwan students and teachers and parents to Saint Louis, and so also became part of that process and University of Missouri Extension became part of that process. And so we came up with a MOA, no, MOU Memorandum of Understanding.

Franklin Morris: And would that was that in 2012 or was that earlier?

Bobby Norfolk: It was after 2012 this was around. Let me see, many years after Mike Brown and Ferguson, looking at more like 2015. 2015 to 2016.

Franklin Morris: But even before that, even before that project, would you say UMSL has always kind of had that that culturally open attitude?

Bobby Norfolk: It has been, you know, there was those times too when I just lost sight of what was going on on campus. I was distracted with traveling during storytelling and being a National Park Ranger, and so I didn't have my finger on the pulse of UMSL's campus during that time, so some of this stuff I totally missed.

Franklin Morris: That's that's all right. I can't expect you to account for 60 years of of happenings just by yourself. That you've done a very good job of doing that.

Franklin Morris: Kind of to shift gears a little bit, talk a bit, there are a lot of religious communities of all sorts of different types active here on on, so campus, were you ever involved in any of those in any of those communities you said you grew up with the Baptist Church here in Saint Louis?

Franklin Morris: Did they ever have, like, an active presence here on campus as well? And were you ever a part of that community?

Bobby Norfolk: 01:05:00There was no religiosity on campus, when I was attending here, it was all politically based. However, there were several things going on in terms of performance, arts and so I became part of the Student Activities Committee. To bring national known acts on campus, and probably my biggest cool of bringing national acts on campus was Nikki Giovanni, the poor, the extraordinaire. Who we brought here on campus and comedian activist Dick Gregory. He brought him on campus and these soul group, the stylistics Body Mouths and Bloodstone and a few others that escaped my memory. Not not right now, but we brought in major acts either public speakers or performers. 01:06:00And what happened with that is that it drew like a magnet. Everybody around Saint Louis who wanted to hear these groups or these individuals speak.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely and I know we've been talking a lot about, not so much heavy, but serious topics to switch over to something a bit more lighthearted. If you're all right. You've talked a lot about theatres and shows and performing arts here on campus and how you were involved in that. Do you remember some of the some of your favorite shows that either got put on, that you helped set up and put on, or that you've performed in yourself?

Bobby Norfolk: I'll show this here on at the university campus?

Franklin Morris: Yes, Sir.

Bobby Norfolk: Well, there were several skits that we put on in the student activities building. 01:07:00Some were stand up comedy skits, some were political satire skits we put on. Some were serious, like the assassination of Malcolm X, which was in 1965, and the Audubon Ballroom in New York City. I portrayed Malcolm X when they coming into the student center. And I have these other students who have starter pistols, and I came on and I started giving a Malcolm X speech. And all of a sudden, these students came out of the crowd with their started pistols. Pop, pop, pop, pop. Boy, they got people's attention.

Franklin Morris: Did the university know you were going to do this before you did it?

Bobby Norfolk: No.

Franklin Morris: How did they respond?

Bobby Norfolk: It's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

Franklin Morris: I agree. That is the motto of activism. But how did the university respond?

Bobby Norfolk: We didn't care. We were activists. This is political theater. This is street theater. And so we didn't care. Like I said, it's better to ask forgiveness than permission. 01:08:00We we did it, and it was a resounding, to some of those states, positive response. Franklin Morris: Well, I'm sure the student body loved it. Bobby Norfolk: Yeah, because what happened was that, I mean, we just did. I didn't get off the floor and brushed off myself and go to my next class. It was a a discussion that back in the day, see people think rap music. In the 1980s, but rap took on a whole different connotation. When I was at home, so rap is to sit like we are now chatting back and forth about subjects, you know, somebody said, hey, dude, let me wrap to you for a few minutes about something. It wasn't that hippity hop there, there. It was talking about political issues. That was a rap session, so we had rap sessions all over. So after the Malcolm X skit, we had a rap session about human rights, activism, the legacy 01:09:00of Malcolm X and how he left that legacy. And he was one of the most powerful African American leaders in U.S. history.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely, absolutely.

[ 01:10:00 Background]

How was your soup?

Bobby Norfolk: Hello.

Bobby Norfolk: African American leaders of all time his rise left off. Stop that and it was um interesting to note that journalism aspect I took that to another Level 1 campus because I started the ABC newsletter.

Franklin Morris: The one or the one on campus here?

Bobby Norfolk: I don't know if it's the same one, but 01:11:00the one I started I was publisher, I was editor and I was printer and reporter. So anything that I would see on NBC, ABC, CBS. Whatever I would read in time, U.S. news and World Report, Newsweek magazine, Forbes Business Week, I would take that information and then I would then create a newsletter and give it out on campus. I left them in the little paper racks in every building.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely. Wow, you political activists. Starting your own newspaper setting up shows with theaters doing skit, doing activist. You just--you did it all you.

Bobby Norfolk: I was all over the place. Loved it. Enjoy it.

Franklin Morris: They gave you a list of stuff you could do on campus, you said, all right, I'm going to scratch it off. 01:12:00Make sure I do everything that's amazing. It's incredible hearing the stories like this. Now, one of the questions one of the line of questions I always like to ask when I'm interviewing people, especially with university stuff is, I'd like to talk about the food of campus because not only could you get some reflection with food of the culture and of the people that are around at the time, but also it's kind of light hearted because everybody seems to have some fun stories around food on campus. What--what would be your relationship like? What was the thing that you would always go for here? The food. Campus while you were here, as a student regarding food?

Bobby Norfolk: Yeah. Yeah, good question. 01:13:00I--I didn't have any issues about the food. I think the cooks were good. They were excellent during the time. I have no idea what kind of food they fix over there now at the millennial center, but our food was palatable. Our food was okay, that's how it is now, but anyway if we could hold it down.

Franklin Morris: But I say the food now isn't so bad. It's just seems like they've outsourced a lot to other restaurants now.

Bobby Norfolk: Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't all fried and died and laid to the side like it is now. You know, these cooks took time. They were chefs. They were cooked, they were chefs. And they took time to prepare the food. The the price was good and the flavor was good, so I had no problems with that.

Franklin Morris: And and was it a lot more like back when it was first rating? Was it a lot more what people would consider, like Saint Louis cuisine or was it more just your traditional Midwestern American food?

Bobby Norfolk: It was basic American fare at the time. It was an Italian or Asian or Chinese. It was basic American fair and 01:14:00the cafeteria at the time was the building adjacent to the JCPenney building, the JC Penney building had just recently opened as a matter of fact, when I started here on campus and then there was a student center that was adjacent to JC Penney building. I can't think of the name of that building. We call it the Student Activities Center.

Franklin Morris: Was it? Was it the building that was kind of like a shed, the student activities?

Bobby Norfolk: No, that was the administration building though the where the cafeteria is, this building had just been constructed, but that's where a lot of people spent a lot of time playing ping pong. 01:15:00I was late for so many classes because the ping pong and I thought that my goodness, this is obsessive. And some of the other folks played cards and I had no time.

Franklin Morris: I always like to ask this question because I found that universal among college students alumni, there's always a story about how you're up late at night working on stuff, and you're looking for an open place, cause you're just grabbing a midnight bite to eat. I did UMSL have a place like that where it's like 12 o'clock at night and 1:00 in the morning and you could grab because you know this place was open you could grab by?

Bobby Norfolk: No, really, no. I don't even think they had night classes here when I was going here. So after 5:00, you get out of here. You campus police better not find you roaming around in the dark 01:16:00on this campus. But so yeah, you go somewhere else to eat after 5:00. That was about the time the last class ended and would resume again at 8:30.

Franklin Morris: And where there are a lot of restaurants that kind of built up around upsells campus with to cater to students at the time?

Bobby Norfolk: No, there were no. This was a food desert. When I attended this campus, my goodness, I mean nothing to you have to go away to all the way to the airport to find food. Yes, you have to go all the way East.

Franklin Morris: Really that far?

Bobby Norfolk: About two or three miles to find decent food and you know, Ferguson had some little tiny restaurants. Nothing to write home about and then to the South with Bill Nora. And it was all exclusive private homes over there. There was no restaurants. New restaurant district in Biltong.

Franklin Morris: Wow. Even even though it was a commuter school. They didn't have a lot of stuff to commute to, did they?

Bobby Norfolk: 01:17:00You had to commute a long way if you want decent food. And so nobody would want to be bringing the lunch pails and brown bags on campus, and that was so uncool.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely, yeah.

Bobby Norfolk: So you eat on campus or you left campus and you either took the Natural Bridge bus if you didn't have a car to get off campus or you drove East.

Franklin Morris: So then would students then meet at other people's houses and, like, do cooking and stuff? They're outside of campus instead of--

Bobby Norfolk: There was a lot of communing off campus than there was on campus. 01:18:00So after political activities were completed, after study was completed, then we would need it other people's houses and have potlucks.

Franklin Morris: Are there any particularly memorable potluck experiences that you can recall?

Bobby Norfolk: It was a few that led me to become vegetarian. Yes, I am 90% vegetarian have been since 1978. And so I'm, I say 90% vegan, I mean, what 90% vegetarian but 10% vegan and that 10% is because sometimes eggs and butter and cream slip into my food.

Franklin Morris: So what was the potluck experience that really switched this over where you said you're not done?

Bobby Norfolk: Some white hippies who were vegetarian. They led the way. And so I started finding out that there's a science to food. 01:19:00By looking at what they did by vegetarians that talked about how we have flat teeth that's not meant for ripping flesh from bone. We don't have canine teeth like beast of prey. Do you want to? If you would have to kill your own red meat every day, would you do that? Because we weren't farmers, we were city folk. So if I have to shoot a rabbit or a deer for my dinner, then they thought, you know, then you need to become vegetarian.

Franklin Morris: It's definitely a different perspective, for sure and with these fellow students that introduce you to this idea?

Bobby Norfolk: Yes, they were. They were a fellow students. And so they showed me the light.

Franklin Morris: To kind of--There's--I have so many more questions I want to ask, but I don't know how much time how much time we have left. 01:20:00So to kind of close it to kind of start wrapping us up here a bit, uh, were there any experiences or any things that happen on UMSL's campus that had to do with UMSL that you'd like to share that we haven't touched on?

Bobby Norfolk: I think the main thing about this campus that I like is that it has an energy. It's hard to define that energy, but I feel it every time I drive on campus. And I'm not sure if there's some vortex underneath the buildings here, that's creating this force feel, but they lay out and design was very well planned by people who were much smarter than I am. 01:21:00And they knew what they were doing, and they established this, this campus. And so I feel that energy and has nothing to do primarily with the buildings or the professors. That has to do with where this place is located. And it may be part of my metaphysics training I didn't get into that that I became a metaphysician and empath and a Mystic while attending UMSL I wanted to know what was beyond reading, writing and arithmetic. The three R's. And so I started to study the Mystic arts, I studied Tai chi and martial arts and Transcendental Meditation. And so I my soul evolved while here and I'm soul.

Franklin Morris: Would you like to elaborate more on those experiences as well?

Bobby Norfolk: There were things trying to describe a sunset to somebody that you experienced. 01:22:00When you sing a song saying you sucking in air, it was things that I did that were taught to me by other students and professors that that that did not appear in the syllabus. That was not part of the course, the catalog, these were things that we learned after class. That there is more than you can see here, taste, touch and smell. And so that was how metaphysics and mysticism came to me while on campus. And so it was something that propelled me in my career.

Bobby Norfolk: And so I found out that becoming one of the best known storytellers in America was because of that growth process. [1: 01:23:00] And then when I got a TV show on Channel 4, it was solidified. It was a children's TV show with a puppeteer called Gator Tails which ran on Channel 4 on Saturday and this show it was at 9:30 AM. It won three Emmy Awards.

Franklin Morris: That was your--that was your show?Bobby Norfolk: And there was my show. Franklin Morris: All because you had this experience with professors and students at UMSL?

Bobby Norfolk: Exactly. It was because of that whole process of evolving from being a student here and getting that gig at Channel 4 with that and that show ran for me from 1988 to 94. 01:24:00The show itself always involve character education, respect responsibility, teamwork and cooperation, honesty and so being a storyteller and coming from that story background. I would always have stories of character education and but that character education was founded here on this campus. I have no idea what direction my life would have taken. Helen, I've been here, but the show itself. One of the three images because of the storytelling experience because of the experience that I had gained and the show lives on because I create now stories. I find stories. Sometimes I find stories, sometimes stories find me. But I became a devotee of libraries and bookstores.

Franklin Morris: And would you say UMSL has always had that center of carrying on the tradition of storytelling and of oral history?

Bobby Norfolk: It has, it has. There are no coincidences in this world. That's something again, that I learned when I took psychology courses here on campus and learned about Carl Jung and the synchronicity of things. There are no coincidences according to Carl Jung, everything is a distinctive pattern and one thing follows the other, and I found out about synchronicity by studying corium, and then I found out even more. So is that stories are embedded in everything that we do in terms of our historical or political or sociological backgrounds, it's only embedded in story.

Franklin Morris: Absolutely. Even right now this recording is recording of stories of your story and UMSL story through you, I'd say thank you. So unless there's anything else you'd like to add, thank you so much for this amazing interview. Thank you for coming and talking and sitting down with me today.

Bobby Norfolk: Yes, Sir.

Franklin Morris: Hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you.

(End of Recording)