20:40:42 28 years old, born in Saint Louis, Missouri,
20:40:56 Okay. And so, Cliffon, I do want to thank you.
20:41:02 For agreeing at to conduct this interview with me.
20:41:12 And that just to begin, you mentioned that you were born here in the
metropolitan area.20:41:17 If you could just start by giving me an idea of what your life
experiences were like.20:41:24 How many brothers and sisters did you go around that You have a large
household? or, did you grow up in a smaller household?20:41:34 So I have 3 i'm an oldest of 4 siblings.
20:41:42 So I have 3 younger brothers and my house originally.
20:41:45 I just grew up with my mom, so I was my only I was like the only child
until I met, like my other brothers and family, when I turned around like 13 or 14 years old,20:42:05 And Do you think that that experience of not having the opportunity to
grow up around your siblings?20:42:22 Do you? What type of impact do you think that that had on your on your
early life growing up20:42:32 Honestly, I don't I don't think that it had like a huge impact.
20:42:34 I mean I didn't know that I had siblings I always wanted like siblings,
or I wanted like older siblings when I was younger.20:42:42 But it wasn't like a huge thing to me so I mean Honestly, it's kind of
like what you don't know won't hurt you type of thing. so I don't really think it had any impact until like I actually met20:42:52 them, and then I was kind of excited to know that I had siblings
20:43:06 And so getting to know our coming into the understanding that you had siblings.
20:43:15 How do you think that that changed your worldview in terms of how you
saw yourself?20:43:22 Once you recognize that you were now part of a larger family, and as
opposed to it, just being beyond just you and your mom So ultimately the easiest way that I could put it.20:43:36 Is. It was all overwhelming for me growing up in a smaller household,
you know, in my younger years, not having any siblings.20:43:52 Being an only child like my family, was pretty much, very small, so I
pretty much grew up around my mom.20:43:53 My aunt and my grandmother and that was pretty much it.
20:44:02 So when I met you know my my dad's side of the family and my step mom,
and you know her side of the family in my siblings when I got older, it was honestly very overwhelming for me because I20:44:12 wasn't used to it. I wouldn't be used to being around that many people
consistently on a day to day basis.20:44:22 Like large family functions, lots of extended family. It was just.
20:44:25 It was very overwhelming for me. Honestly, yeah,
20:44:34 Right, and and to be honest with you, never! And I never thought about
that myself.20:44:42 But with that, what were some of the things that growing up?
20:44:52 Before you were introduced to your larger, your larger family.
20:44:54 What was some of the things that you did? in terms of, I guess.
20:45:02 For lack of a better term, not necessarily just payment.
20:45:04 But what were some of the things that you enjoyed doing as a child
growing up?20:45:12 It. that's a hard question for me just because Well, I don't really
have a lot of memory of my younger years growing up with just my mom just because around the age of like 7 or 8 like I went into foster20:45:32 care So I know that, like I used to play with the kids in a
neighborhood like I have like a lot of friends from the neighborhood, and stuff like that.20:45:42 But I don't like have an extensive memory of like what I did for fun,
or you know how things were per se back then in my younger years20:45:58 Would you say that
20:46:04 You those that those are some memories? that you've kind of would you
consider that you've suppressed those memories, or is it?20:46:14 Or would you say that it's more so just that that's a long time ago,
and and and it's just kinda hard to recall I'll probably say it's hard to recall like I I have like a20:46:26 sorted childhood, so there was just like a lot going on especially like
around age of 7.20:46:33 They kind of just like like it, kind of like a you kind of like
overlapped everything else.20:46:42 That may have happened before, because it was just I mean there was
just a lot that happened from the age of 7 open until you know the time here where I met my my father.20:46:52 At like 13. So in between that timeframe there was just like a lot
going on.20:46:56 There was a lot of moving around like a lot of changes that happen
within my life, so I wouldn't say that I suppress those memories.20:47:03 I just I honestly just it's hard to remember it's hard to recall that
stuff and like a lot of other stuff happened that I feel like was more more evident that happening between that time or after that20:47:15 timeframe,
20:47:24 And that's good that's completely understandable especially when you
consider like you said, and just that the instability that was going on in in your life.20:47:38 I I can completely understand how you know that can cause kind of
things to kind of together.20:47:46 Yeah memories to kind of get conflated. when you have like.
20:47:52 You said that it stability so that's completely understandable what?
what, What would you say?20:48:02 Were some of the things that you would do to kind of deal with that
that chaotic nature of of having to move around so much, and and really not having that stability there.20:48:17 How, how, how did, How did you? What were some of your your strategies?
20:48:23 For for for dealing with that hmm so I think that it like Ultimately I
don't think that I had any set coping mechanisms.20:48:42 I guess you could say like the only thing that I could say like my
behavior in my mannerisms.20:48:46 I guess change like when you're in those types of situations that I was
in growing up.20:48:52 You kind of just learn to be a little bit more like adaptable like you.
20:48:54 You learn to be like, I guess, ready to adjust ready for change.
20:48:58 You like prepare for you. kind of expect it to happen.
20:49:02 So. I did just kind of become quieter, more reserved to myself.
20:49:06 But at the same time, like I, I think it made me like a more of like a
stronger, more street smart person like I had to grow very fast, so I was always just ready for whatever was happening next.20:49:22 I think that like I grew up very fast, so like I I learned more than a
lot of people had to learn in my age, even people older than me.20:49:32 Like I just had so many experiences that made me grow
20:49:37 Not always in like do ways like I was kind of just like always in
fighter flight mode.20:49:42 I guess you could say that. But I did become more reserved, more quiet.
20:49:44 I watch the things that I said, yeah, like I mean, I kinda I. I
transition from being like an only child who was like spoiled to like honestly like a street kid,20:50:15 So having to make have it to make that adjustment like that.
20:50:22 And what did you begin to explore your identification in in terms of
yeah, from a standpoint of sexuality.20:50:36 At what age did you Did you begin to explore those possibilities in
terms of thinking beyond?20:50:47 Just what everyone's expectations work Well, I think they're like from
a very young age.20:51:02 Probably like, probably from a very, very young age, I always knew that
like I may have been like different, I guess. but I didn't exactly know what that meant.20:51:12 I didn't know what any of that meant I just knew like I was different.
20:51:13 I knew that I like things that I probably shouldn't be liking as a boy.
20:51:18 And that's just the easiest way to put it, and so like i'll say
probably from the earliest age of like, maybe 8 or 9 years old.20:51:32 I knew that, like I may be like gay or bisexual, or something like that.
20:51:35 But I didn't know those termin I didn't know the terminology for it.
20:51:42 So like gay and bisexual work words that I would use.
20:51:42 I just knew that, like I liked boys and I like the girls, but I knew
that I shouldn't because like it was against like religion.20:51:52 It was against like what I wasn't supposed to because boys don't like
boys, and I knew that I was like very young.20:51:57 I probably shouldn't be thinking about those things but for me. I
think, because of the transition that I may, through all of the adjustments that I had in my life like going to foster care meeting my father when I was like20:52:12 13 years old. I kind of was just very in tune with myself, so like I
came out. it's like bisexual when I was maybe like 15 years old.20:52:22 Because I just like I was honest with myself. and I think that, like as
far as exploring, that goes, maybe maybe probably around the age of 14.20:52:34 But as far as like exploring, I mean, like, you know, maybe like
sneaking in, you know.20:52:42 And you know, looking at Porn, or you know like looking at other people
in certain ways, or I I don't know stuff like that.20:53:02 I guess
20:53:02 What? So So let me ask you then, because it sounds like you.
20:53:12 Then uncovered our Our went through allotted discovery on your own
20:53:19 Who were you able to? or were you able all 2 to talk with anyone, to
try to kind of talk through your feelings?20:53:32 Not just the physical side, but talk through what you were thinking how
you were feeling, how people were reacting to how you were filling some of those people, or or were there people that you were able to talk those things through with as you were coming into becoming more20:53:49 comfortable with who you were. There was nowhere there.
20:53:55 I mean like Honestly, there was nobody when I when I I did honestly
like self-discovery was like is the best like term for it, because that's all I was able to do when I was sure of myself enough20:54:14 to to make it public or to make it. Now, like we have Facebook, which
is just becoming like a thing like we have Facebook and Bebo and Facebook.20:54:23 It kind of just became a thing And on Facebook you could change your
status like you could change your relationship or interested in status on Facebook. So like one night after school, I changed my interested in status to interested in men and women on20:54:42 Facebook. and I wasn't aware that it would show up on the news fee for
everybody to see, like all of my Facebook friends to see.20:54:52 But it did so the next morning when I went to school.
20:54:54 I think it was like my sophomore year in high school like I went to
school, and everybody knew so like as I'm walking through the hallways like everybody's kind of like turning and looking at me there's like people20:55:03 giggling or like people talking and i'm like you know.
20:55:06 Finally, people start coming up to me like my friends and people who
i'm cool when they're like is this true.20:55:12 You know we saw this on Facebook and yadda Yada and that's kind of just
how that happened.20:55:15 And I think within that same week was when, like I had that
conversation like with my family, like my parents and stuff.20:55:23 But I kind of caught Hill from it like no, no one was understanding or
like accepting of, like my sexuality.20:55:32 In any way, shape or form so there wasn't anyone that I felt like I
could talk to you20:55:44 And and and i'm and i'm trying to think about that time period.
20:55:52 Because we're talking thing about maybe early like the first decade of
the 2,000, and and so it it's that's a time period in which it seems like like the world was kind of starting just kind of starting to get20:56:12 beginning to get more comfortable with with people express seeing there
are different forms of sexual identity, and and everyone being more accepting.20:56:22 So it's kinda like yeah Yeah, Unfortunately, it sounds to me you did
not have that support system.20:56:25 There. when you are able to look back on that time now.
20:56:36 Do you? How do you think are? What do you think you would have done
different friendly in terms of how you came out?20:56:48 Knowing what you know now. Oh, honestly like I wouldn't change anything.
20:56:55 The reality of it is is awesome. yeah I I mean I wouldn't have changed
anything, because just the reality of it is is like being an adult.20:57:04 Now, having been out or open with my sexuality for so long, I see that
there are so many people who come out20:57:13 Who were open about their sexuality. Finally, you know, when they get
to their twenties, when they get to the thirties of their forties and a lot of people. My situation is different from a lot of people that I even know who are in20:57:25 my age group, or even who i'm friends with just because I came out.
20:57:32 That was the first person My, when I came out there was only, maybe,
like 2 or 3 other people in my high school who were openly gay.20:57:42 And they were all like, maybe seeing years, you know. I think there was
maybe like 2 singers in the junior who were like who were like openly gay.20:57:52 So I was the only person who was like the beginning of my sophomore
year in high school who was just like, Yeah, you know. i'm i'm gay or i'm bisexual and like I had a20:57:58 girlfriend at the time. so I mean like that was rough, and it was
weird, and it was a whole thing.20:58:03 But I mean honestly like I wouldn't change anything because i've gotten
to know myself through that experience for so much longer than a lot of other people have20:58:22 So it it is, and and that's that's truly admirable becoming comfortable
with yourself, like you said earlier.20:58:35 Some people don't find that comfort zone with who they are until their
twenties, and to the thirties some people never find find that at all.20:58:45 As you became comfortable with who you were.
20:58:53 What were some of the reactions that you received some if you could
give me kind of examples of some reactions that surprised you. and some reactions that you, I I I don't wanna say that that that were hurtful but20:59:15 which some of what was some of the reactions that were most surprising?
20:59:22 And what were some of the reactions that were most disappointing for you?
20:59:25 I wouldn't say that any of the reactions that I got were surprising.
20:59:32 Of. Unfortunately they they just weren't surprising to me but you know
My, you know my parents including my step.20:59:42 Mom so like from all 3 you know my my father Wasn't very upset
accepting of it at all you know my mom told me that I was going to hell.20:59:52 Like my mom told me that it was a phase and I would grow out of it.
20:59:56 You know I wasn't old enough to know you know who I was yet, or
anything like that.21:00:02 I I did lose a lot of friends people who I was cool with like at school.
21:00:07 Who i've been where i've been friends with for a few years.
21:00:12 Even if my older years, like my older teenage, years, even a probably
into the age of 19 by my mom, my biological mother, she still isn't very accepting of my sexuality because like I am her only child so21:00:25 she she wants grandchildren and she knows that like I.
21:00:32 She says that like I won't be able to provide that you know she still
feels as though like i'm gonna go to hail.21:00:42 Yeah, you know. So I I don't I don't think that anything was
surprising, just knowing the people who I was actually having those conversations with21:00:52 But probably the most harmful thing was, I did develop close
friendships with people, because I didn't have close relationships with family members, because I just met my family, you know, when I turned 13 after being in Foster care for several21:01:06 years, so it's like I didn't hadn't developed those close relationships
with my family.21:01:12 So I entirely developed a close friendships with people.
21:01:13 So I think that was probably the most hurtful losing those friendships.
21:01:19 Because I I felt that those relationships that I developed with friends
were closer than the relationship I had with family at the time.21:01:26 So. but nothing was surprising. I think that you know some of the
reaction to some of my friends.21:01:32 We're we're hurtful but I mean we were we were kids, you know.
21:01:35 We were young. so it's like I get it I understand there's like a you know.
21:01:39 There's like a you know high school you know like gossipy, teenager
type of thing situation there.21:01:46 So it's like you know I mean it is what it is
21:01:55 So. I but I i'm i'm hearing you say that. But that's a tremendously
mature perspective to take on that, even even at that time in high school and it seems like and you said it before and that you had to21:02:15 grow up a lot faster, and it sounds like that that growing up faster
kind of helped.21:02:22 You kind of deal with what came your way but I I I guess I'm wondering here.
21:02:32 Who is your support system, then? who are you able to talk to?
21:02:38 Who Who were you able to lean on after those friends disappeared after
dealing with the disappointment that that is, convey to you from your parents.21:02:52 Who was that support system that you were able to draw strength from?
21:03:03 Well, I mean I still have friends. I still have friends.
21:03:09 So ultimately the way it really worked is like like I just I I wouldn't
say that I I had any specific family members like I did have a couple of cousins, so you know I had some cousins growing up who kind of21:03:23 accepted me regardless. I didn't really make a difference or It didn't
really matter so like you know like my cousin a little Greg, and then, like my cousin Chris, they were you know they they're like21:03:34 my because and so they were always like it it didn't really matter
whether I was gay or not.21:03:42 I think that they kind of always suspected Anyway, I hadn't known them
for very long before I actually came out.21:03:46 So I feel like they kind of suspected, anyway. but it didn't really
matter or make a difference to them.21:03:52 You know they still kind of have my back or kind of like stood up for
me, and stuff like that. So I could talk to them about things. but I never really actually talked to anybody about sexuality, because I didn't actually begin to21:04:04 explore my sexuality like actually explore it until, like I became an adult.
21:04:12 So maybe like, probably at the age of 19, was when I began to actually
explore my sexuality.21:04:15 But I didn't actually start having those conversations about my
sexuality with anyone.21:04:22 Until I became an adult because I didn't feel like I had anybody around
me who actually supported that I was the only person who was in my social circle or my friend group in high school.21:04:33 I was the only person who was actually who was who was out, who was who
was on, who was openly gay.21:04:42 I had a couple of I have a couple of friends who you know I'm still
friends with them.21:04:45 My adult years, but they didn't come out about their sexuality until we
were adults.21:04:52 So I kind of was like the pioneer in in my social circle of friends.
21:04:56 For I guess, for like them to come out later on in life, you know,
because I have about 3 friends who came out in their later years, or don't use.21:05:05 But we were friends in high school when I came out. when I was 1415
years old,21:05:17 So. So then you were kind of that that source of strength from for
everyone else.21:05:29 Then, and it sounds like the fact that everyone knew that you were that
you were openly gay, kind of created made. I don't wanna say made you the poster, child, but it may You would. You just kind of became a a beacon of21:05:46 light for them. It sounds like, maybe, I mean it it's weird because you
know, like from the age of 15 to 18, I was still in a relationship with you know, with a girl with the woman like I had a high school21:06:04 sweetheart. we went to prime together and homecoming, and everything,
and you know she was my girlfriend from the age of 15 until 18, and that's at the time we broke up was kind of around the time when I21:06:22 actually started to explore my sexuality, but I had every intention of
actually being with her, because I did come up as bisexual.21:06:27 But I think I kind of knew that I leaned towards me more but I was
actually kind of like in love with, like we were in love like we had a like a real like kind of long term high school.21:06:42 Relationship so like I was openly bisexual.
21:06:44 But I was still in this relationship with the girls. Yeah.
21:06:52 How how
21:06:55 And again, if you're not comfortable that's completely understandable?
21:06:57 But how was that relationship with her? given that you had a long term
relationship with her?21:07:06 Were you able to expressed to her? that you had to do additional
feelings, and that you, you know that you were exploring other elements and other aspects of your identity?21:07:22 Or was that something that that you never talked about in that relationship?
21:07:27 We discussed it. It was something that was discussed like.
21:07:32 I discussed it with her before I actually even, you know, like made it
public before it came out as bisexual.21:07:37 I did go to her and have a conversation with her first because I didn't
want her to be embarrassed, you know.21:07:43 By I mean she chose to stay in that relationship with me.
21:07:48 So I mean throughout the relationship the relationship actually was a
good relationship.21:07:52 I think that the one thing that I will say that that that changed for
our relationship is that when I did come out as bisexual people. Okay.21:08:05 So I I dated a popular girl who was very pretty, who a lot of guys
wanted to to be with, or, you know, wanted to date or to fight with, or whatever you know like.21:08:17 The Jackson would not. I do get into a lot of fights in high school,
and that's because I had to defend myself, because people thought that because I was gay I was a punk, or because that because like I was21:08:27 gay or bisexual that they could take my girl.
21:08:32 You know it. It kind of was kind of it was kind of one of those types
of situations.21:08:36 So but she stayed with me, you know she always defended me.
21:08:42 She always had my back we're kind of like guinea yang throughout high school.
21:08:46 So I I think that, like we had a good relationship, You know.
21:08:52 I knew her family. She knew my family. it we did sometimes have those
conversations, because I think that sometimes it did make her a little insecure.21:09:02 That I was bisexual and you know Sometimes she would ask me, you know.
Are you having thoughts about anybody in particular, you know, and I would always just tell her no like I'm not actually physically exploring anything with anybody I don't have21:09:12 any crushes like i'm with you but that was a conversation that we had
to have on a few on a few occasions21:09:25 And so after that relationship, because you you mentioned earlier that
you began to kind of explore your stuff and kind of come out after that relationship.21:09:42 So kind of 19 onward. if you could tell me a once you once you came
out, and you kind of begin exploring identity.21:09:52 Looking back now at your 1920 year old self
21:10:02 Do you think you your initial exploration with was more?
21:10:05 Were you looking for more for love, or were you looking more for to
better understand yourself?21:10:16 No, so I I would probably say from the age of 19 to 23.
21:10:23 I was probably like a diehard, hopeless, romantic.
21:10:28 So like at the age of 19, I have my first relationship.
21:10:33 And it was like a long distance, long, long business relationship.
21:10:38 So I mean. We We saw each other every every couple of months, but he
lived in New Brooklyn, New York, and I lived in St.21:10:45 Louis and there was a 9 year age gap, maybe 8, 9 year age gap.
21:10:52 So like I was 19, and he was like 27 or 28
21:10:57 And you know I was in love. but then, you know, we were together for a
while, and then, like, I ended up getting to another relationship with someone who I have been best friends with since the age of like. 14.21:11:12 So we got into a relationship. We were like head overheels in love with
each other.21:11:17 But that only lasted about 3 months, and then it crashed and burned.
21:11:23 And then, you know, maybe a few months after that I was in another relationship.
21:11:26 But that relationship lasted about 2 years, but it was a terrible super
toxic, you know, super abusive relationship, but I stayed in it because, like you know, I was just so in love, and I was like I you know I wanna make this21:11:39 work so definitely. 1941, 22 was definitely the age for me, where I was
like a hopeless romantic was in some toxic relationships.21:11:52 Because I I definitely wanted to find like that that true love.
21:11:53 I thought that it would come to me in those early years
21:12:04 Hey? that's that's no different than than any other 1920 year old.
21:12:12 I think that's honest with themselves so you're in good company.
21:12:16 But So if you would if you could say because I I I kind of want to go
back to something you test on earlier, and that was that you had a lot of friends that knew you we're again or21:12:34 bisexual, certainly at the time in high school.
21:12:37 And then they came out to you years later. Why, why do you think that
you became a a safe space?21:12:52 It seems like for for others that we're exploring their sexuality.
21:12:58 Like. Honestly, I think that I have a very strong.
21:13:05 I have a strong personality, you know. I have a strong personality.
21:13:09 I'm very confident and in my earlier years as opposed to now.
21:13:16 Cause i've calmed down quite a bit I was somebody who was like a I was
very blunt.21:13:23 I was very blunt. I was very outspoken.
21:13:26 I was very much like i'm gonna say with some of mine i'm i'm gonna be
very honest, regardless of whether or not it hurt your feelings.21:13:34 I'm gonna be true to myself, so that's just how I was like growing up.
21:13:42 And I think that coming out at such an early age, there were people who
I guess people would say that they knew were obviously probably gay, or in the closet.21:13:53 And I think that maybe I did have some mannerisms.
21:13:56 I was a little flamboyant in my earlier years, so like I just knew myself.
21:14:02 So I came out when I think that other people weren't comfortable
enough, and they weren't like they maybe weren't strong enough for the time to take that flack or that backlash because there was a lot of21:14:12 backlash, you know, there was a lot of people who called you names or
said mean things or picked fights with you, or just weren't nice to you, or didn't want to be around you just because you were you know open a21:14:23 bachelor sexuality. So I did go through a lot in my younger years.
21:14:29 After coming out of my sexuality and I think that other people just
maybe weren't strong enough to handle that at the time, or they maybe just like they didn't want to deal with it I mean it's scary like it's21:14:42 It's not easy. it's not easy at all like you have to have very tough
skin to be able to deal with that and put up with it like on a day to day basis on a regular basis.21:14:52 From friends, from family, from strangers so yeah that's that's what
21:15:05 Amazing for me just listening to you now, and and you know watching you
as a as a cut, and you know from from afar.21:15:16 You've always been mature i've always admired your your maturity.
21:15:27 What do you think are are advice what you give?
21:15:35 Who your younger self knowing what you know now, in terms of vice, in
terms of adjusting and and and living your truth21:15:58 Like I probably would like I i'm not sure I I don't think that, like as
far as my younger self, i'll say like after like when I became a young adult i'll say like when I became a younger, though the advice that I would give21:16:18 myself is like focus more on life itself rather than focusing on like
like finding love.21:16:28 I think that like because I may have been deprived explore my sexuality
in my younger years that when I did become a young adult, be between the ages of 19 and 23, I was all about finding that relationship you21:16:44 know with a man and actually exploring that, you know.
21:16:48 And finally, somebody that I could end up with long term. I think that
if any advice I could give myself, it would just be like focus more on you and not on someone else based around my sexuality, because like I have a whole life.21:17:02 To live after that, like people think that like when you turned when
you turn 18 or 21 like you know like you're finally grown like you're an adult.21:17:12 But there's so much more that you you should be focusing on, and just
like finding love in a real relationship.21:17:18 You have to focus on like the future, like. Set yourself up for the
future, you know.21:17:22 Be able to have something to provide to a relationship you know later
on down the line. You have to have something to bring to the table.21:17:29 And it's like now i'm focusing on bringing something to the table.
21:17:32 Now in my later twenties, when I could have already had that setup in
my earlier twenties.21:17:36 But I was focused on finding a man. So so yeah,
21:17:47 Then again that that's again that's wessex affected of most people in
their early twenties is making the mistake of of looking for love instead of like you said building and that foundation.21:18:05 So that's completely understandable. I want to change directions a
little bit.21:18:12 Because nice you like you said earlier you were kind of that beacon of
light, that that source of strength for for other people who were less comfortable.21:18:23 But that sexuality around you. did you ever get?
21:18:29 And have you ever been involved with with Lgbtq organizations?
21:18:37 And and if not, why haven't you by gotten involved that level?
21:18:44 Because it sounds like what you're doing right now, it's a lot of
advocacy work on a local, you know, and within your inner circle.21:18:52 But that's have you ever considered kind of taking that and and getting
more involved with with other organizations.21:19:03 So when I was when I was in my younger years.
21:19:12 So I think, between ages of 19 and 21 I was involved with the with the
an organization that's located off of like.21:19:16 I think, lately. it's called the spot so I was like
21:19:22 I would go to the spot like once a week, and I would like speak out.
21:19:24 There would be younger Lgbtq, you know, members or or keys between ages
of like, literally 14, and like 25 who will come up there and, like, you know, sometimes they would be dealing with situations at home You know, with their families21:19:38 or at school. Sometimes the the parents or their families would kick
them out because they came out about their sexualities.21:19:45 Or you know, some kids would maybe catch sexually transmitted diseases
or viruses, and they would have to come to the spot to get food clothes, you know.21:19:58 Medicine medication. some. Sometimes they would just need advice.
21:20:02 So had these certain mentor at the spot for a couple of years.
21:20:06 On and off Aside from that like there weren't many organizations that I
would say I was involved in21:20:14 I think that the gay community here in St. louis is very small, is very
clickish, and it can't be messy at times.21:20:24 I think, in my early twenties. I deal with.
21:20:28 I was a part of a gay family and that was probably one of the worst
experiences like ever.21:20:37 So I was what you would call like a gay uncle like I wasn't like a
father, or anything like that.21:20:42 But, like I was a gay uncle, so like I had nieces and nephews, and you
know younger like gay brothers and sisters and whatnot.21:20:52 And they did. looked up to me so like you know they would call me I
mean I was just like I mean I was clear, for I was Uncle Cliff, or whatever the case was, and I had an apartment.21:21:02 I had a car, you know I was working 2 jobs I was in school, so a lot of
the you know, younger gay guys and girls sometimes they didn't have anywhere to stay.21:21:13 They could come to my house, you know they would stay at my house for a
couple months at a time, sometimes just a couple of nights, if they would get kicked out.21:21:22 Some people would give beat up by their parents or whatever the case
was, or they didn't have any money or any way to get to him from school.21:21:28 You know I would take them, and I would drop them off.
21:21:32 And you know they kind of look up to me because I did have a job.
21:21:36 I was in school I was doing other things, and I was like very, very
confident within, like myself and my sexuality.21:21:43 So like outside of those organizations, like I was like a pillar of my
gay family for a time21:22:02 Do do you use? I think
21:22:04 Do you think that because of your your kind hearted nature?
21:22:12 And and your willingness to be that support system.
21:22:18 How much of what you were doing was doing, how much of what you were doing?
21:22:27 Were you doing a service, and how much of what you were doing?
21:22:32 Do you think was the result of people just trying to use you?
21:22:38 So I think initially, I think initially, I thought that I was doing a
huge service.21:22:46 I think he was kind of both 50. 50. I think there was a huge amount of
people attempting to use me for resources.21:22:52 You know And then there was a huge amount where I felt like I was
actually doing some good, and I was a member of that gay family from the age of like 19 until the age of 21, when I completely disassociated from21:23:04 them. I kinda had gotten set up completely from because I felt used you know.
21:23:12 There was, you know, when you allow a lot of people around you, a lot
of young, immature, impressionable people around you, and there are older people.21:23:22 So we did have like a gay file there, and a game mother, and a gay
uncle, and stuff like that.21:23:27 And they were older. So you know, I was considered a little bit older
because I was between ages of 19 and 2121:23:33 But there were people who were around the ages of like 2425, 2627, who
kind of like ran the show.21:23:42 Ultimately. Those people were the people who were very manipulative.
21:23:48 So they? Once I realized that they were very manipulative to the
younger gay people.21:23:52 I kind of got. I kind of reached my limit, and kind of got out of dodge
kind of completely disassociated, and left those people alone.21:24:02 But honestly, I was doing it because I felt like I was really helping
people, and I saw a lot of people really appreciate the help that I was being, that I was given out that I was giving out the support that I was giving them.21:24:12 But I did feel extremely used in a lot of ways and That's what kind of
what led to me leaving them alone.21:24:25 And that's kind of but that's you know again that's kind of part of
human nature good in terms of learning to interact with different people.21:24:38 If you're around enough people and and especially with a kind of heart,
you're gonna get used, I kind of like the term you have to protect your goodness21:24:54 Have you found someone or a group of of some of people that you feel
like you had?21:25:06 You no longer have to protect your goodness around. Oh, yeah, for sure.
21:25:12 So you know, I definitely have like a social cycle of friends who the
thing is.21:25:15 Is There's a few people who are met through that through that gay family.
21:25:22 So I have let's see 1 2 3 people 3 guys who have met through that
social circle of of a of people.21:25:28 When I was younger, they gave family who i'm actually still friends
with today.21:25:32 I mean all 3 of those people are like. I consider them my best friends.
21:25:36 So we have decade plus long friendships. almost a decade.
21:25:42 Long friendships with each and every one of them.
21:25:45 And we all separated from the gay family for the same reasons.
21:25:52 So you know I do consider those people like my my close friends, my
best friends, my confidence21:25:57 And aside from that, I do still have other friends that like I've met
around the way a couple of friends that I'm still, you know best friends with from like high school, maybe like 2 people, and then just people who21:26:12 I've met like here and there from college or you know jobs are just out
and about.21:26:13 But I do have, like a nice social circle of friends who I feel like I
can trust who support me, who I support them.21:26:22 If I need something, I can call on them if they need anything they'll
come to me.21:26:26 So yeah, I definitely have that now.
21:26:36 And how would you say your family dynamic has evolved?
21:26:42 Since your earlier years, when you first came out I know you've
mentioned to about your parents, your your step, mom, and and how you know they weren't very receptive.21:26:57 Then, and you even talked about your biological mom not being the most
receptive even now.21:27:03 But what about other family members? how, how, how, How have your
family relationships changed over the years, or have they changed?21:27:13 So I think that as far as like my as far as my family goes, I think
that my family is pretty understanding of my sexuality.21:27:22 I don't think it's like an issue I don't think it's like a thing for
most people.21:27:27 Now, Mike, my mom, She isn't she is understanding she's very heavily
involved in church.21:27:34 She's very like heavily heavy Christian so she does not believe you
know, in my sexuality she doesn't like it.21:27:44 You know she hates it. She still has strong opinions and viewpoints on that
21:27:52 But as far as that goes, she's like the only person who like will
openly say that she doesn't like or detest my sexuality.21:27:58 I think everyone else is comfortable with who I am I think I think like
ultimately, like i'm so confident within myself like i'm gonna show up as me every time.21:28:08 And either you can get with it, or you can get lost.
21:28:12 But I think not a lot of people if they do
21:28:14 If they do have those negative opinions or standpoints on my sexuality,
they won't voice them openly to me, or in a in a way where I will know about it.21:28:28 Now there are sometimes where maybe if family functions and sometimes I
may walk into a room, or I may be around and I may notice starting my passive, aggressive behaviors, that I've know are directly linked towards my21:28:44 sexuality. but those people are people who like i'm close to, or who I
would like, worry about our trip off of21:28:53 You know some people are kind of just older and stuck in their ways,
and some people like i'm just not close to, so you know it doesn't the it's kind of just like a 9 factor, but as far as like21:29:06 my my immediate family. I I don't think it's like an issue.
21:29:09 I don't think I think they have my my my dad, probably is like the
biggest person in my immediate family who has made the most like change in becoming comfortable with who I am.21:29:22 So yeah, that's the most noticeable change or notable change probably
21:29:34 Why do you think, though, those changes occurred, how much of that do
you think was you now use this specifically? and how much do you think that was just a reflection of larger society?21:29:53 Changing I think. I think a lot of it had some.
21:30:03 I think a lot of it had to do with me, I think.
21:30:05 Like if you are someone who's like in my immediate family, or some of
who i'm around quite often like my parents, for example, or my siblings, so21:30:15 The reality of it is is like you you knew me you probably knew me or
loved me before I came out, as as as whatever my sexuality is or was,21:30:27 So it's like are you gonna continue to love me for who I am, or you're
gonna continue to be uncomfortable.21:30:33 So I think that ultimately is kind of just like a me and It's a you
thing so it's like like with my father, for example. he wasn't initially comfortable with my sexuality.21:30:43 I don't think it's what he wanted I think he had a certain viewpoint or
plan of what he expected my life to be and I think he kind of just like relaxed with that as he got older but I think that he was kind21:30:57 of like. Well, this is my son. i'm gonna love him regardless. And I
think that, like I think the society has a lot to do with it, too, because I mean it is kind of in your face.21:31:08 Now, you know, sexuality is loud, is free. it can sometimes be flamboyant.
21:31:15 It can sometimes be boisterous. you know you can't really escape it
nowadays with social media, you know, with all of that like just with society in general, you know.21:31:27 So people. A lot of people are very open minded about what it is
nowadays, so you can't really escape that.21:31:32 So I think that ultimately like if you're gonna you know hate on that,
you know you have to hit on everybody, including like your child.21:31:42 And is that something that you want to do? Probably not.
21:31:44 I think that says a lot more about you than it does about the person
that you have that strong negative viewpoint and opinion about.21:31:52 So I think that that's just the reality of it
21:32:05 Thank you, and and I think you're absolutely right What advice? because
this, this, this interview is going to become a part of an archive, and I think, and and future generations going to be able to listen to listen to your story21:32:27 to listen to your confidence. How you've overcome perceptions, and how
you've dealt with being comfortable in your own scan.21:32:38 What advice would you give a a younger person that may hear this?
21:32:45 That may have questions about their identity, about whether or not to
come out, or our, or or looking for a a a source of of strength.21:33:02 What, what is, would you give them that young person? that may come
across this interview?21:33:12 Well, nowadays in in my life, now very big on like not saying like it
has to be just you or nobody else but21:33:22 You come into this world by yourself. and you're gonna leave by
yourself, not saying that you can't form relationships outside of the one that you have with yourself.21:33:28 But I think that the bomb that you have to form with yourself and you
alone, is more important thing.21:33:33 Any other relationship that may be out there in this world, so
regardless of what societal pressures may be presented to you, or maybe put in front of you, or you know, growing up in high school kids or very cruel I think that you21:33:48 have to form that kind of relationship with yourself to know who you
truly are, and understand yourself earlier, that you do that the more prepared You'll be later on in life.21:33:58 I mean you'll be one step 1020 steps ahead of everybody else in the
game Who for the people who were following the Trans.21:34:05 Or, you know, trying to be social media influencers and and stuff like that.
21:34:12 I think it's so important to know who you are above all else.
21:34:13 And I think they're spending It time in an early age figuring out who
you are is what's most important.21:34:23 People are gonna have opinion. People are gonna have things that say,
people are gonna have negative comments.21:34:28 People are gonna gossip. People are gonna spare rumors.
21:34:35 But regardless of that. are you happy with you? Are you happy with the
person that you are?21:34:36 Do you know who you are? Are you putting on a show for someone else,
and do those people that you're putting on a show for really actually matter?21:34:44 Are they gonna be around in 1020 years if not then it's probably not important.
21:34:52 So I mean like, if I were to give advice I would just say focus on you
and do what's best for you, and find out who you are and love who you are.21:35:02 Above all else,
21:35:15 I I think that's I mean that's wonderful advice absolutely wonderful advice.
21:35:24 With that. I I would like to conclude this interview. however.
21:35:32 I know this is an official interview. but you are from our cousin, so I
I I regardless of official or not.21:35:39 I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.
21:35:42 Because you did not have to take the time to do this. I want to thank
you for being honest with me and sharing your year experience with me.21:35:53 And just thank you for being you cliffon you've always as long as i've
known you you've been you and i'm saying that just say that you've been more comfortable in your skin than than21:36:08 I was, you know, and i'm I got you by by a good 15 years, and so I've
always admired the fact that you were comfortable in your own scan, and and I just encourage you to continue to be you I love21:36:23 you for you. I just keep doing you just like you said, and and thank
you again for taking the time for Green to do this interview for Green to add your voice to the21:36:38 So queer community, archive, and for serving as a a a source of inspiration.
21:36:43 For future generations, even if you don't necessarily get to meet the
some of those people.21:36:52 But you're gonna help some people with your voice here today. So I
just, you know I just want to thank you.