Willow by Jeri Ewert

Transcript of Interview With Willow

Narrator: Willow

Interviewer: Jeri Ewert

Interview Date: April 22, 2022

Location: Zoom

Length: 90 minutes (1:30:44)

Jeri Ewert: Alright, so my name is Jeri Ewert and today's April 22, 2022. The purpose of this interview is to collect Community oral histories from the St. Louis LGBTQ+ community as a reminder you're being recorded and I'll need you to sign the release form at the end. Um.. Again, thank you for volunteering and can you state your name and spell it for me.

Willow: Um my name is Anjeni Morrell. So my first name A N J E N I and my last is M O R R E L L. [for the purposes of publishing the interview, the narrator requested that we use her middle name, Willow]

JE: Awesome, Thank you. um so I guess to start what would you or what do you identify as within the LGBTQ+ community?

W: Um I just identify as queer. Um [pause] it's hard for me to put a label on it I've never like officially come out or anything so I don't [pause] I don't know [pause] like state it always but yeah.

JE: Okay, um so how do you feel people with the same or similar identity to 00:01:00yours were represented in the media growing up and how about now?

W: Growing up, I don't think I saw a lot of it. Um but I think now, especially with social media it's changed a lot um and it's--. People have I don't know if it's just because it's like I'm in St Louis now but, in general, people um can be really open in my experience.

JE: Okay, um what social movements have you seen progress during your lifetime?

W: Hmm

JE: [laughter]

W: Um I think I mean I don't know what year it was but um Obama made um gay marriage legal in all States, so I-- I witness that, that was cool. Um-- Other social movements, I mean like black lives matter really started um picking up a 00:02:00lot in recent years. Um yeah.

JE: Okay, um. How do you feel the political climate has changed around the LGBTQ+ movement in your lifetime?

W: Um I mean I'm only 19 [laughter] So you know, but um I think--. I remember being really like open to things when I was in like middle school um and everyone else was too, and then like during the trump administration, people were starting to be like openly homophobic and stuff. Um But now I think it's like getting better again and I don't know if it's just because I've been more comfortable with who I am lately, but you know.

JE: Okay. Um do you ever feel pressured or expected to provide an opinion on 00:03:00issues facing the LGBTQ+ community, and do you ever feel like an expect-- there's an expectation to educate others on those types of issues?

W: I do. yeah so I moved to St Louis from a rural area um and I visited like a few weeks ago and people--after having a girlfriend in St Louis--were asking me like extremely personal inappropriate questions. Um and they thought it was just like a fetish thing or something. And I feel absolutely responsible for educating them on things like that.

JE: Alright, so we're gonna kind of jump into the origins of like you. [laugh] So, can you tell me when and where you were born?

W: I was born in Syracuse, New York. Um July 25, 2002.

JE: And I assume you live in St Louis right now?

W: I do yeah.

JE: Okay, So where did you grow up?

W: I grew up in Syracuse until I was eight and then I moved to south um of Rolla, Missouri with my grandma. Um and then I was back and forth for a few years, but ultimately, I was living in rural Missouri. Um and then August of 2020 I moved to St Louis for college and I've been here ever since.

JE: Alright, um can you um tell me a little bit about your family or cultural background?

W: mm hmm. So my mom is Native American and my dad is white. Um So, [pause] I had no contact with my mom so I that part of my culture has been like removed 00:05:00from my first hand experience for a few years. Um which is disappointing because it's like a very like woman centric culture. Um [pause] but um otherwise um yeah I mean just raised by my grandma so I like to do old lady things.

JE: So is that your maternal or--?

W: it's my-- it's my dad's mom.

JE: Okay [pause] Alright, um, I guess, could you explain a little bit more of like what your family dynamic is then?

W: yeah. So in the state of Missouri, it is only me, my grandma, and my dad it's really confusing like having to explain my family but yeah it's just the three of us me, my grandma, and my dad in Missouri. I'm the only one who lives in St Louis but in the state it's just us three and then in New York is the rest 00:06:00of my family so mom's and dad's side, but yeah.

JE: alright um do you have any siblings and, if so, how many and what are their ages?

W: I have three older siblings. two of them are half siblings and they're like mid to late 30s um through my mom and we don't really talk. And then, I have a full sister she's 22. Um and she also lives in New York.

JE: [pause] There we go sorry [laugh].

W: okay yea I think you were muted [laugh].

JE: [laugh] um yea. so you mentioned your grandmother, but were there any other supportive figures um that you had in your life? or like role models that played a significant role in your life?

W: Um my aunt--so my dad's sister my grandma's daughter--she--. Um her and I 00:07:00had always been close like growing up in New York, we were close and then we kind of dwindled when I moved away and then she moved to Missouri for a few years we became like best friends. Um and she I can talk to about absolutely anything so like my grandma I have to kind of like filter myself, my dad doesn't really like care about that type of stuff but my and I could talk to like anything about. But now I'm living with an old woman. Her name is Janice. she's 75 years old. She's a retired Professor from WASH U. I live in her basement um and she's a great role model to have too so.

JE: Okay um how would you describe your childhood, then?

W: Um It was chaotic, definitely. Um there was like a lot of um like fighting 00:08:00all the time, confusion, all the time um and that's ultimately why I ended up moving to rural Missouri because I needed like stability. Um I'm the one in my family is like changing it all. Um and I always knew that since I was little so that was a lot of pressure and I just needed to remove myself from it so that's why I moved.

JE: Okay, um let's see. Have you noticed if there is a difference um living in Upstate New York compared to rural Missouri? I mean I know you were younger, but do you know if there's any differences between the two?

W: Absolutely yeah. Um even when I was younger I realized, I mean people just the culture of like the differences in people was amazing like in New York, they 00:09:00were so rude um and in the small town, they were so polite. But I found that--according to my values--the people who are nicer were actually like ill intentioned, and like in New York they're more rude but my values aligned with them more and maybe that's just because that's where I grew up but you know. yeah I definitely noticed a difference in people.

JE: Alright, um so I guess in relation to the LGBTQ+ Community um what was the attitude surrounding that community with your family growing up?

W: um we were not like a Christian family, but we would go to church, sometimes, and um--this is in rural Missouri--one time they were talking about 00:10:00Ellen DeGeneres being lesbian and um my dad got all of us up in the middle of the sermon and we left and we never went to that church again. Um I think it's like my family dynamic is just strange in general but um my grandma doesn't understand really but she's in support. My dad doesn't get it, but he understands at like a basic foundational level that everybody's equal and everybody should be treated as such, so.

JE: Okay um, where was I? Were you aware of your identity as a part of the LGBTQ+ community from a young age? If not, when did you find out you were able to realize your identity?

W: So um I remember talking and like coming out to my friends in sixth grade, 00:11:00so I was 12-- or 11. Um and I guess there was always an interest, like, I think, little girls like with their other little girlfriends like always like experience from what I've heard. So, I mean there's that. But then I always knew like throughout high school and stuff I identified as bi and um [pause] I never dated a girl, though, because it was a small town. And then, when I finally did after I moved to college, I was like yeah this is exactly what--like I knew it. Um so yeah, I guess I like always thought it since I was young, um and then, when I finally dated a woman, it was like locked in.

JE: So, would you think um your knowledge of the LGBTQ+ Community while growing up in rural Missouri was still like you've had a good knowledge or like How would you explain like what you knew about the Community?

W: I was really present online. Um, so I think that I was always really like in it like mentally. Um, but that's a good question, because I [pause] I can see like how that can be kind of mystified in rural Missouri and, in some ways it was. Um but yeah with my family being more progressive than everybody else down there, it was just different so--and with my online presence, I think that I was fully aware of what was happening.

JE: Alright, so you would think um not really--like your knowledge of the Community wasn't really based on where you were but just because of online?

W: yeah. and I think it actually added like another interesting facet of like a different perspective that you wouldn't necessarily get online from being from a really tiny town and the way that they portray um like gay people to be. I think that that added an interesting perspective, like to the conversation in my head so.

JE: um. What was it like for you to move through elementary, middle school, and high school as a queer person, even if you weren't aware of it at the time?

W: um. So I never really started--like in high school is when I started being like aware of people knowing that about me I guess. And people would make jokes about it all the time. Um not in like a malicious way and I think that that is due to the fact that I'm a woman.

Um but yeah definitely in high school people were always making jokes about it and um fetishizing it. But never in a malicious way.

JE: Okay, so I mean, do you think that may have been based off just um your generation and being so present online and, like the knowledge of the Community, do you think maybe your peers were--I mean they made jokes, but do you think they were more understanding just based on--?

W: I think so yeah. And I think, because I--It wasn't some like online thing--like imaginary thing anymore, because that was me and then I--I kind of represented that for them. And I'm their friend and I've like went to school amongst them and do the same things that they do so, I think that um I was kind 00:15:00of like the personification of that idea that they had in their head and I made it, you know casual.

JE: okay, um what did the journey to finding your identity look like for you?

W: um I had [pause] like a really strange relationship with sex [pause] with men. Um and I don't think that that really had anything to do it my sexuality, but after being with a woman it's like completely different than it is with being with the man And um it helped my growth. Like my connection to self was like so centered I have never--I've never felt more like feminine and cared for in my life. Um, what was the question again? [laugh]

JE: Um sort of just like what the journey was for you to find your identity, you know. Um did you seek information online? You know--but like, how is that journey, for you like what involved and entailed for you?

W: So I was on like Hinge, and I would have my interest set to like both women um and men. um I joined a polyamorous relationship. And we were all equals it wasn't like I was the unicorn or whatever. Um and that's like the first relationship--the first real relationship I ever had with a woman. Um but I remember her being like nervous in the beginning that I was just like bi-curious. Um and that posted some issues, but over time--it's just like a 00:17:00friendship--with a woman it's so much easier so like a relationship with a woman is so much easier too.

JE: Okay, so I know you had mentioned um telling you like your friends and stuff um about um your identity--I think you said either middle school or high school--so how was that, like, for you? Um you know coming to terms with that and like how you kind of discovered that about yourself at like such a young--like at a younger age.

W: I don't think I ever really doubted it like I just had special connections with my friends. Um some more like stronger than others, and i'm like what--what does that mean? Um I don't really know how I like came to that conclusion, but um I think that probably was it.

JE: Alright, um so what sort of romantic relationships did you see growing up 00:18:00and how do you think that impacted you and like your queer identity?

W: Like other people's romantic relationships? Um well, I mean my parents were never in a healthy relationship, and so I never saw a stable--I mean anybody in my family any adult in my life I've never seen a stable like healthy relationship. My grandma was remarried to a man and they had a great marriage, but the only reason she was able to leave her first like super abusive marriage is because she met him and he was able to like whatever help her remarry. Um but yeah, I mean I don't have any like gay relationships in my life growing up, it was just all battered hetero-relationships. [laughing]

JE: [laughing] okay, um let's see, have you ever connected with a spectrum of different identities? So do you feel like you maybe, you know because some um people you know will go from bi to lesbian, you know kind of--did you notice that you were maybe bouncing around or do you think you were like "No, this is who I am" and you were pretty like set in stone.

W: It was like I always thought I was bi and then--but I wasn't like sure, because there was no like confirmation from a woman yet. Um but then after my relationship, I was like oh okay yeah this is right. And actually after that relationship, I was like I don't think I could ever date a man again, but like ( ) I don't know what I was thinking. [laughing]

JE: Okay, um so who have you shared your identity with so far?

W: um mostly just my friends and, like my peers--people my age. But I I don't 00:20:00like--I've never officially come out to everybody like I've introduced my ex-girlfriend to people. My dad knows that she was my girlfriend. Um my aunt knows that that was my girlfriend. ( ) like the woman I live with knows that, so I just keep the older people in my life like questioning, I guess, I don't want to make it a thing. So I'm just not and I'm just doing my thing.

JE: Okay um so even though you haven't like fully come out, but like people are aware that you are probably not heterosexual um--.

W: yeah yeah.

JE: What were the people's reactions and do you feel like you were supported?

W: So with my friends, I feel like yeah. Um Janice 100 percent. She helped like 00:21:00found the first LGBTQ um organization at SLU. She was on the board or like the faculty for that. So her completely. Um, but my dad since my ex and I were together in a polyamorous relationship, my dad thought that it was just some like threesome thing. Um [pause] But [pause] he--he said he wishes I was in a more traditional relationship and I don't know if that just means like monogamous or you know hetero I don't know didn't ask. But they love me and they accept me always so.

JE: Okay, um so you had mentioned, you know not really coming out so, how would you describe coming out or like what is like the whole idea of coming out mean 00:22:00to you?

W: I think when somebody comes out it like--people are like "oh yeah they're gay" or like that's always something you'd say. And like I don't want that to be--I don't I don't want my sexuality to just be a thing, I just want to exist and be me, and I think like that's really liberating for some people in the Community. Um but, for me, I still haven't like found myself yet and I don't want my sexuality to be my like defining factor in the way that I perceived.

JE: That makes sense. um. For sure let's see. So you had mentioned um your um relationship. Was there other relationships, like what has your experience with 00:23:00romantic relationships been like?

W: um I remember--like in terms of girls--in middle school [clears throat] there was a girl that we were like definitely like into each other [laughing and coughing] and then, like we grew up and we're still that way together. Um and like now I look back at other girls in my life and I'm like oh my God, like, I--I had a crush on her like no matter I though we--no wonder I thought we were so close because I had a crush on her. Um so there were like a couple girls that I like really felt connected to before really knowing that I was like gay. Um [clears throat] but otherwise it was like just mostly men and hookup culture.

JE: Okay um, let's see. [pause] How has your racial or ethnic identity affected 00:24:00your experience as a queer person.?

W: Um [pause] in my polyam relationship they were like we always--like we knew we were going to end up with somebody who is like--like ethnic and i'm like oh okay I don't know that was weird like they're not like that, but I don't know. I think it just adds another layer of like in terms--like with white people it just adds another layer of like being interesting like oh she's native and she's gay, cool. Or that's the way that it's perceived anyway, but otherwise it hasn't really impacted my life.

JE: Okay, um has the pandemic impacted your gender identity or sexual 00:25:00orientation in some way?

W: Um. I think it definitely like had to scale back on--I mean because I was a senior in high school whenever covid happened and I moved to St Louis like right in the thick of covid in August 2020. And so I always like expected going to college and like experiencing dating and dating women and it just didn't happen that way because of the pandemic, and so I think it like scaled back my like experimentation um in that way, so.

JE: Um let's see. what cultural expectations, do you feel your queerness defies if there's an?

W: What cultural expectations? I think that's why I choose not to like 00:26:00officially come out to everyone. Um because I Rep--[pause] I will have to like I--like I mentioned before, I feel responsible for like educating people. And I just don't want my life to be just only that. Um so I don't really know how to answer that question.

JE: Well that's okay that's perfectly fine. Um, so as an UMSL student, how is your college experience been like as a queer student?

W: it's been great. There are a lot of--I'm a member of women empowering women and I love that group so much--. Um I think--I'm an accounting major so as a 00:27:00business student I definitely run into it less um and I dress different and I act different than other like people in the business school. Um but I took a ceramics elective and then I was like around gay people, and I was like "YES." But um UMSL is like really open and--in my experience and I've had a great time there, so I've never run into any issues, nobody bats an eye when I was with my ex girlfriend so.

JE: Um So, you would think--so you feel that UMSL is a very inclusive campus?

W: yeah in my experience.

JE: okay, um and what about um PRIZM as a student organization, do you feel well represented or accepted on campus?

W: yeah I love PRIZM, um PRIZM and women empowering women they do a lot of things together. Um but I love that that representation is there and I love the 00:28:00events that PRIZM does as well. I think it's like a really great um like safe space for LGBTQ people to know, because at UMSL it's hard to like make friends and connections and stuff and I think it's important that there's a place for LGBTQ people--like if I wasn't involved in groups i'd be like oh i'm in business school and people are boring. So.

JE: Okay um let's see. Are you currently employed or have you had a job before?

Or--And if so, how has your occupation or lack thereof intersect with your queer identity?

W: hmm. So I um mostly have worked in the restaurant industry. so I was working 00:29:00at Three Sixty the rooftop bar downtown for like a year then I moved over to boogaloo in Maplewood um and now I'm currently working at the library on campus. So in the restaurant industry like particularly Three Sixty, I had to dress a certain way, and I would get hit on all the time, but always by men, and so it-- I didn't--I felt like strangely straight there, and I mean it's like a novelty kind of bar too so. [cough] Not that I felt like excluded, but I didn't feel like my LGBTQ comm--like um like [pause] It was never like loud there, I guess. Um and then I moved to boogaloo, which was a smaller place. Um and people I felt 00:30:00were like more real than people at Three Sixty and I was really able to like explore myself. I was working at boogaloo when I started dating in my polyam relationship. Um one of my co-workers, she had like had girlfriends before, um so I definitely felt super comfortable at boogaloo. And then at the library now with other young people my age um they're kind of in the same boat. I know a couple of them are bi. Um I know there's a trans person working at the library so.

JE: um so with work and school, do you think it's been easy for you to create um relationships with other queer people, and like build your own little group I guess or community that you can like rely on?

W: I definitely think so. Like at Boogaloo um I was able to like--I mean when 00:31:00you're with your coworkers you just kind of like talk about whatever and having other queer people there were--it was so great um being able to talk through my first girlfriend and like--like coming to terms with my um sexuality. There was a man at boogaloo who was like thirty something, and he had only came out like six years ago, or something like that, and he was in the military previously, so we got to talk a lot about that, but. Definitely I've--working is where I found most of my community in terms of like my personal circle with LGBTQ people.

JE: Oh that's awesome, um so I guess besides your identity within the LGBTQ+ community is there anything else that is important part of your identity? 00:32:00Because I know you said you didn't really want your queerness to be the center of your identity.

W: um I think, I'm very, I'm still working on that [laugh] But I'm a very like um--I feel like I'm very centered. I've been going to therapy, since I was fourteen or fifteen um consistently. So, I think I'm like emotionally mature, and I take pride in that. Um and I also would say I'm very artistic and that's definitely a part of a piece of who I am.

JE: Do you think, do you feel like that's maybe impacted your queer identity in any way, um especially like your artist side you had mentioned taking ceramics and you're like "ah gay people" so do you think um other parts of your identity, 00:33:00have been impacted by your queer identity in anyway?

W: I, I found it so strange that, like--I--I'm naturally artistic um and I've been honing those skills, over time, my whole life I've always been artistic. And I, I wonder, like, especially now that I'm in a ceramics class and I'm experiencing like the art groups on campus and stuff, like, why are queer people artists. [laugh] like, why are we good at art? [cough] Or why are we brave enough to like, I don't know but I've always been artistic and these people that are around me that are queer always have been too, so I kind of wonder about that. Um but otherwise I think it's just made me like a more open minded person like going to therapy and stuff I've like been able to understand people, why 00:34:00people are homophobic, and like that's why I say I think being from the rural town really adds like an interesting lens to the conversation. Um because I'm able to like analyze these people being in being with them every single day I understand who they are, and understanding myself it's, it's interesting.

JE: Um I know you had mentioned briefly sort of going to church, but not really being religious like as a family. Um so could you maybe elaborate on that a little bit more of like being raised religious but not really. Um and would you consider yourself spiritual or religious now?

W: So my dad always said that we went to church because, like he's like "the Bible can be completely false but there's good life lessons" and I--now that I'm 00:35:00older I don't understand why we went um because neither of my parents believe, and neither of them live by the word or whatever. Um they don't identify as Christian either, so I think it was just like a good thing, I think it was something that my parents wanted to do because that's what families do together, growing up is what they thought and like that's what would make a healthy family. That's what I think and it taught you life lessons. But now I've understood that--this is up for debate--but like spirituality isn't innately religious and I stand by that like completely. Um.

I think it's interesting because, in my experience men don't understand that, 00:36:00but women do.

Um and I think my experience in therapy and stuff like that has really connected to myself and allowed me to like be connected to my own spirit, therefore, able to connect to everyone else's and everything else's. Um so yeah I'm spiritual but I don't know I don't have like an ultimate like deity or anything like that so.

JE: Okay um let's see where was I? So, growing up in rural Missouri um I assume it was probably pretty religious um [laugh].

W: yeah [laugh]

JE: I think the--how would you say, like the religious community of like a rural Missouri town um impacted you?

W: I think [pause] It made me pity them. And I think it made me stronger like seeing what these people, like they're contradictory things that they would say and do. Um yeah I pity them. They claim to love everyone but it's not true, and like it just it's coming from a place of privilege and from--they don't understand that knowing every single person in your town is like so weird they don't get that. Um so anything outside of what they don't know is like shocking and like uncomfortable and can't be addressed, and so I think it--it really helped in my own growth and I'm really grateful to have experienced that sort of 00:38:00life, because now, I know what they're both like, like rural and urban so.

JE: Okay um so someone who is spiritual um, how has your queer identity impacted your relationship with your spirituality?

W: I think it was really exciting realizing I'm like okay like this is right and I, and I knew it was right, but I just needed that confirmation. Um and so I think, finding that out about myself was like, It was exciting. Um and I felt even more connected to myself than before, because that's like a big thing and realizing that I can love a woman was like just so, like a, like a deep breath, 00:39:00or like a weight off my shoulders, it was so great. And I think I mean when you find something out about yourself it's so huge um that's huge in your spirituality so.

JE: Okay, do you remember the first time that you felt like you were a part of the LGBTQ+ Community? So like not really your identity but, like the first time you really felt a part of the Community.

W: um. I think it was, I think I can pin it to like an exact moment. We went to the Renaissance festival, and like we were all dressed up and me and my ex were just holding hands and there was this little girl who is staring at us and I was like why the fuck is she looking at us? And she's like we're girls holding hands and I was like oh yeah, OH YEAH and I think at that moment, I was like whoa. And we also went to um the pride festival together, which was really exciting too 00:40:00because I was like "I'm here with my girlfriend at Pride." Um so I think those were the two moments that like really I felt like a member of the Community.

JE: Okay um--.

W: But it wasn't until I had a girlfriend that I did.

JE: yeah okay. um so I guess what has your experience within the LGBTQ+ Community been like for you?

W: um. So in St Louis it's like super normal and peoples don't even bat an eye, but I have mentioned this already but whenever I go like back home--south of Rolla--people are asking me like super intrusive questions as if they like, there's no doubt in their mind that they aren't you know, asking too much. Um as if they're entitled to that information. Um can you repeat the question, one 00:41:00more time?

JE: Yeah no worries. um Where was it? I think, um just how has your experience within the Community been like for you.

W: Oh Okay. Yeah. So like it's definitely been great in St Louis and it thrives but then whenever I go back home it's like I have to represent that and I'm constantly having to be like on defense and constantly having to like prepare myself for what, what I'm going to have to say next. Um but in St Louis it's been easier for me and great, and I feel included and loved. Um but then whenever I go back home it's kind of barren and I'm, I have to, that's what I talk about when I'm there so, that's what I've been reduced to when I'm there.

Jeri Ewert: Okay um, so I guess um, How has dating been like for you as a queer 00:42:00person? Do you find it difficult to find other queer people or like relatively easy? And how is it like this experience for you?

W: I think it's been kind of easy. Um I think that I've had--serving--I've had a couple tables that were girls leave me their numbers. I'm like so, is it that obvious? [laugh] so it must be right, I don't know um. So, I mean like I've met a few people in the wild and I met people at UMSL who are gay. But I mean mainly right now I'm just meeting people through Hinge. Um and it's been great meeting girls on there. Um it's like, it's harder for me after dating a girl to justify 00:43:00talking to a guy. But yeah.

JE: Okay, so like with online dating, do you feel like as--do you think online dating accommodates well for queer people?

W: I think yes, but it depends on like what your, what platform--platform you're using. I only use Hinge for that purpose, because it's like the only one that allows you in my experience, like actually build a connection and there's a lot of women on there so.

JE: Okay so, um. Have you tried other Apps and has like, how is that experience been with--for you, because I know like for queer people--especially women--um who are trying to find a queer relationship, online dating can kind of be a 00:44:00weird space um with the fetishization and such--

W: yeah.

JE: How has that experience been for you? (00:44:04)

W: I've noticed many women on there are just like--I'll notice that their prompts are like directed towards men. Um and so I don't know how many people are being like genuine on there, but the women I match with are like far and few between when you compare it to men. Um so it's definitely harder but relatively speaking, I mean that's where you can meet people so yeah.

JE: Okay so as a younger person, um I'm 26, so I'm just curious like [pause]

with like this day and age it's pretty much online dating or like it's really hard to meet people naturally, so do you feel like that's affected your dating 00:45:00in any way?

W: I think so. I really think it has. Um I don't think I've met anyone like naturally besides, maybe a couple of people um that I've dated. So um that's just the culture now and I can't say that it's--I like it, but I see people now like TikTok who are getting married and they met on Tinder and stuff but that's definitely like dating culture now its apps. Everybody has it.

JE: Okay, I was very curious about that. Um so you talked about your polyamorous relationship a little bit um, I would like to dive into that a bit um so could you maybe um

explain like what that was like for you and like how the dynamic was and anything you can provide.

W: [laughing] I think it was really interesting like the duality of the 00:46:00relationship, because I was with a man and a woman at the same time. Um and I was kind of able to like analyze and like surveyed both of my relationships. Because they're both romantic relationships, but they were so vastly different just because the difference of being with a man and a woman. Um that was a really interesting element of it. Um [pause] I think [pause] for Brian, the guy, it was just kind of like it could have been any girl, and he would have been happy [laughing]. Um but um definitely with Brooke I like found myself--and she was an artist interestingly enough too. She was a full time artist, so I don't know. I, I know Brooke and I were really like anxious, or like nervous, to do 00:47:00our first like our first together, because I was her first girlfriend as well. Um [pause] but it was a safe place, our relationship was, and so we were comfortable enough and Brian helped out and was like encouraging so.

JE: Do you think um your connection was stronger with Brooke then--?

W: Absolutely--

JE: Because I know you've mentioned her a bunch but not mentioning him so. I was curious of like how that was.

W: Absolutely and I don't know--I remember, I said that I was never going to date a guy again after that relationship because historically I had just never liked my boyfriends like in the past, I just straight up did not like them. Um and I really didn't like him either [laughing] Um but I loved Brooke, so I was 00:48:00like unsure but really it taught me that it's a friendship that is like super important in a relationship and ever since realizing that I've been more successful in dating men too.

JE: Okay um So, I was going to ask something that wasn't written [laughing] Give me a moment.

W: Okay.

JE: [laughing] So um--And if you know I'm crossing any boundaries, let me know for sure--

W: That's okay

JE: So do you think--Okay, let me just ask, can you explain what polyamory means to you, and like--yeah we'll just start there. [laughing]

W: Yea so it was--I don't think I would ever do it again. [clears throat] They 00:49:00wanted to try it they had been together for five years and they wanted to try it because they have like so much love to give that they wanted to like include someone else in on it. Um which is like so wholesome, and it totally makes sense, but it's a lot more complicated than that. And we were a triad. [clears throat] Which after being in that relationship for several months I realized was like the minority of um polyamorous relationships we were we were all equally one third of the relationship. Um we were trying to make that happen, but it was really difficult. Um and so I think it was just there's so much love to give in like it was interesting because [clears throat] I was loving two different people as individuals and together. Um but it was definitely a different experience like I can't speak for all polyamorous people because, being in a 00:50:00triad is like a completely different than being in any other like more recognized form of polyamory so.

JE: Alright um. I guess you said you wouldn't do it again--

W: Yeah

JE: Um so do you think like how has it like overall impacted your experience with dating within the LGBTQ community?

W: Um I'm kind of learning to tread lightly now. Um Brooke was my first love, so it was like really tough when we broke up because it felt like I was sort of like an experimentation within their own relationship and then I'm just being kicked to the curb while they stay together. Which we always knew that was going to happen, um if we were to break up, but it still is just like not a fun feeling. So now I'm just kind of treading lightly I'm finding little spaces of 00:51:00people to love and like just doing it. Um it's definitely made me more open to just enjoying a person um without having to be something. [coughing]

JE: Okay um do you think um with like dating now, has there been like a negative reaction to you being in a polyamorous relationship in the past?

W: I think it like--so people who I meet now, now that it's like behind me, and I'm like oh yeah and they're like oh my God your life is so crazy and I'm like yeah, and especially with like love interests it's like um, I understand but everybody's first thought is like some weird threesome thing. Um and I get that, but especially in like the dating they're like oh this girl's like down bad 00:52:00like, so you know.

JE: Um so I know you had mentioned you know previously before this interview how um you believe that polyamorous is a part of the LGBTQ+ community. Could you elaborate on that more?

W: mm hmm so that's kind of a hot take I think. Um but I think that some forms of it are. In the way that it's kind of like taboo, a taboo like relation--excuse me--relationship like structure. Um and I think that--that's--it's like forbidden love type of thing and, like, I think that

LGBTQ and polyamory communities intersect there. And um I have never ever felt 00:53:00um like in the LGBTQ community nobody has ever said anything strange or like kind of looked at me weird for being in a polyam relationship. And I think that there's a safe place for polyam people in the LGBTQ um community, and I think it's the same vice versa, as well. But I've definitely always felt more a member of the LGBTQ community than the polyam community. Um and so I guess it's just a part of like finding home and identifying there and then Brian he is straight, but he felt like included in the LGBTQ community, nobody looked at him strange for being a polyam relationship, even though he's straight so.

JE: Okay. Do you think polyamorous relationships are accepted in the St Louis 00:54:00LGBTQ+ community?

W: I think it depends on the person like old school or new age or like their past experiences because I can only speak for like our structure of polyam um because when I think of like polyamory I think of like swingers and like older people, um and that's like not what it was for us obviously so um I always felt accepted. Um we would think it was funny if like Brian was like standing between us and like was rubbing both of our backs or something we're like oh my God these people probably think that like--something--like one of us doesn't know. but I mean people probably talked but we were never afraid to like be who we were in public, so.

JE: Do you think um that it was easier for you guys, to be more open in public just because um you know, over recent times um polyamorous relationships have become more

known--well known, I guess, more like--I, I know I see them on TikTok, you know you have shows and stuff. Do you think that allowed you guys to feel more open and safe to just be your couple self in public?

W: I think so yeah. I think like--and just the way things are now like people are just doing what they want to do and you're just expected to accept it, and if you don't then like sorry, um and I think that attitude really helped us a lot. Also having each other, like throughout it was great I found a comfort in my own relationship um and that you know translated to like well we're all doing 00:56:00this together so you know we're all in on it so. Um but yeah I don't want to stray away from the question.

JE: No, that was perfect Thank you. Um so I guess what do you wish more people knew about polyamory and non-monogamous relationships?

W: I wish they knew that it wasn't just like some sex thing. Um and it's a legitimate relationship. like people kind of weren't taking me seriously depending on who the person was. Um [coughing] and even now like when I talk about it people just it's kind of like mystified to some people and that's just not the case. Um I understand it, but, yeah.

JE: Alright, um I guess moving on just a little bit um, how do you feel technology has impacted your ability to connect to other people in the community, I know we briefly talked about it, but you know, is there any more to add on to that I guess?

W: yeah I just think it's like social media being a part of--you can be you know anybody you want on social media, and you can talk to anybody you want social media so that's definitely helped. Um especially like growing up in rural Missouri when I didn't have that--my relationships like in person. Um and then, of course, like the online dating aspect it's like you literally say like I'm interested in women and other people who are also interested in women will pop up so it's like you filter that out. Um presumably, everybody who has that on their account you know is into women. So it's made it a lot easier for me okay.

JE: Okay um. You mentioned Pride, um can you maybe like talk more about like your first experience and like how that was for you?

W: Yeah it was exciting, it was in the beginning of our relationship um and Brian had to work that day, so it was just Brooke I who went to Pride. Um and we were seeing like all different types of people, different shapes and sizes and like different forms of relationships and it was so cool. And I think that it was really encouraging in the beginning of our relationship, just to observe everyone else in the Community, St Louis community and LGBTQ community.

Um so I think it helped us out a lot down the road.

JE: Um let's see. Do you feel like St Louis Pride um is accessible to everyone in community?

W: Accessible yes. Um like how?

JE: Um I guess we can say like accessible or inclusive, um do you just feel like

all walks of the LGBTQ community could attend St Louis pride and feel accepted and represented.

W: I think so, definitely. I was at the, at the Tower Grove pride. Um but I think so. Um just being like--just us observing I saw so many different types of people, and it was great um and I don't think there was anybody there who would have looked around like Oh, this is not for me. Um everybody was just coexisting was beautiful so.

JE: let's see um. How did the legalization of gay marriage affect your outlook?

W: I think I was young, I don't remember what year that was but I remember like growing up, knowing that it wasn't legal in every state and I'm like what the heck that's weird because like my family has never been like homophobic and so I always thought it was strange. And then, when it was finally legalized, I remember like on TV seeing a huge celebration and my dad started crying um and it was great I mean I was pretty young at that time, but it's hard for me to imagine, now that that was that gay marriage was legal in every state in my lifetime alone. So.

JE: Okay, it was in 2015, by the way so.

W: 2015? That is so recent!

JE: I know.

W: So I was 13.

JE: Wow I see, I was in--I was graduated from high school when it happened. So it's interesting to hear your aspects from just being in middle school and how it is just affected you alone as like a child.

W: yeah that's crazy.

JE: um let's see. Do you remember any specific time where the racial dynamics of St Louis has affected your relationship with queerness or the queer community?

W: Um not particularly, I think that just moving to St Louis it's definitely way more diverse that Rolla, Missouri. [coughing] And that's one of the things I love about being here. Um and then seeing those things like intersect as well, 01:02:00it just makes me so happy I love seeing it and I love seeing like different walks of life, different cultures, and all parts of the LGBTQ community. It's like witnessing it firsthand it felt like unreal when I was back home, but now that I live here I'm just so happy to be here and so happy to see it.

JE: Okay um, I guess, I want to know more about Women Empowering Women and like your involvement in that, and like how you heard about it, um just like a little bit more about that, and your involvement.

W: So I was just on MyEngage And when I first started, and I was just scrolling through all the clubs and I saw that one and I'm like hmm wouldn't hurt. So I joined it and it's the one group I've been a member of like consistently since I started at UMSL. Um so I started attending events and I'm like well it's 01:03:00literally called Women Empowering Women so surely there's not going to be any woman who's like--I, I was afraid of like sororities and stuff like that and I'm like that's not--I feel like that's not going to be the culture for Women Empowering Women and it wasn't and I'm so pleased with it.

JE: Okay um so I guess um you've been in it for a while, so like what have you done so far with the organization?

W: We um--I went to 360 like for a Friendsgiving most recently. I don't think I did anything my freshman year because I couldn't because of covid um and it's--I'm only in my sophomore year now, but I've done a number of events um and then I've also done things thrown by other groups like with girls from Women Empowering Women. So I would like text the group chat and a few girls from Women 01:04:00Empowering Women would do things. It's just a casual group of like empowering women and um yeah I love that group.

JE: Do you feel like the queer community is represented in that group?

W: Absolutely. Um I brought my ex to the 360 Friendsgiving um and everybody was so awesome I mean there are several queer people in that group. Um and then, like I mentioned, we also do things with PRIZM. Um but yeah it was--I love that group they're so encouraging. Um Brooke came with me, even though she's not even like an UMSL students and it was great we, we talked about our relationship um with Brian as well and they're like "Oh, I want to meet him!" but he like can't come to any of our events, because you know. Um but yeah.

JE: So obviously I would assume feminism is very important to you. Could you elaborate on that maybe?

W: I think like, I feel very feminine and I haven't my whole life like I'm tall and um

I just I haven't always felt feminine until recently and, like, I think it really was dating a woman that really brought out my feminine side. Um and I just feel like [pause] I don't know it's super important to just love and support women and like people always say like women are so complex and, yes, but that's like that's great I love it. I don't know feminism has always been something--feminism is something I felt strongly about before I ever even 01:06:00thought that I was gay so um it's super important to me and I just love women and love ( ).

JE: Um so living in St Louis, um have you been involved in any activism towards like--for women in any way since being here?

W: Besides Women Empowering Women and PRIZM, no. Um it's hard to find a community like just at my jobs and at school that's outside of that um so yeah other than that no.

JE: Okay um what are like some um hopes I guess you have for the future of Women Empowering Women.

W: I, I don't know, I just wanted it to like continue and be strong and I just want there to be a good support system. I, I know for me personally, in my 01:07:00experience, like it's easier for me to have like female friends. Like being friends with women is just so much easier and better for me. And I want to like foster that with Women Empowering Women and just like embrace that because there are so many girls who you know, like are better friends with guys and it's like that's fine but we understand, like women understand women and we can empower each other in ways that men can't so.

JE: You said it was like a small group um do you wish that the group would be I guess grow, or do you feel like it is well known, on campus?

W: I think it's well known, I think it's small like just in the people that are really active there's a small group of circle of people, but a lot of people know Women Empowering Women, and I see people wearing like the shirts that we 01:08:00have and stuff. Um but I think, like everybody should be a part of the group, and I just want everybody to be a part. I mean sororities are kind of like cruelty and weird but Women Empowering Women is literally like in its title, like this is a safe space, so.

JE: Okay I'm moving on to PRIZM, I would like to know more about like your involvement with that and, like how that experience has been with you on campus.

W: So that, I honestly haven't been super involved. I've been to like a couple of the seminars. I know Amanda Lopez through women Empowering Women and she has been great I love Amanda. Um and so I pretty much just know PRIZM through like the way it intersects with Women Empowering Women. Um but I have been to several of like the seminars, like the healthy relationships one I went to um and 01:09:00another one, I think there was another--I don't know I'm in like four or five clubs, so I get confused which is which. But yeah I, I love PRIZM and the people that are in it I'm in the group chat so.

JE: Okay, um what other clubs are you apart of at UMSL?

W: Um I'm apart of UMSL Democrats, which I'm not super um like active in and also Artists Anonymous. So, I'm the treasurer in both Women Empowering Women and Artists Anonymous so [clears throat] I'm pretty active in those.

JE: Okay, um that makes me think about um your major and so how has that been like for you as a queer woman within you know account--you said accounting right?

W: Yea. Yeah Oh, and I'm part of accounting club, but.

JE: [laughing] so how's that been like yeah for you as a queer woman?

W: Yea so it's strange because, like I--like I don't think that being queer is 01:10:00like my only thing that people see um but I definitely act different and I dress different and I listen to different music and I brought my crochet to class the other day and people were like freaking out. Um so I'm definitely different than the people in my major, but I think it's interesting um because I understand that I'm showing like the div--the diversity in people and like I can still be analytical and I can still want to be, you know, like a capitalist worker um and be queer at the same time. So I think that I'm representing like the diversity in people. I don't know they're pretty boring over there, but you know.

JE: Okay um this is kind of veering away, um has your queer identity affected 01:11:00your safety or your perception of personal safety in St Louis? I know you had mentioned briefly feeling very comfortable being open in both your queer relationship with Brooke but also the triad so, overall, do you feel like you were safe?

W: I remember when I was with them being like so what if we do last forever and I'm working in accounting what is that going to look like? Like I know you don't have to talk about like your personal life or whatever with your employers, but what is that going to look like--? (Speaker breaks off because her dogs started to bark)

W: Okay, so um can you repeat the question, one more time? [laughing]

JE: Um has your queer identity affected your safety or your perception of 01:12:00personal safety in St Louis?

W: Right okay yeah. So I think that um I mean there was that element of it of like being unsure of what that was going to look like in my future career. Um [pause] and I think I still wonder that I'm like who am I going to end up with, but in terms of safety, I think I feel safe so.

JE: Okay. Um and then I want to go back to um Janice living with her. Um you had mentioned her starting the SLU LGBTQ ( ) think you said organization, club.

W: yeah

JE: Um can you like talk a bit about that, and like your experience with living with her. Maybe how you guys met and things like that.

W: Yeah we um so my grandma's a dog breeder and the rescue that we like retire [clears throat] retire our dogs to--(speaker breaks off because of her dog). So, 01:13:00they um are from St Louis, and so I was living in the dorm and working at 360 and I needed a place to stay, so my grandma asked them if they knew anybody in St Louis that I could stay with over break and they said Janice. They know Janice because they have Diana's Grove, which is like a women's pagan get away thing. Um and so that's how they know Janice. So, they know my grandma through dogs but Janice through this pagan thing. Um and she was like I like you, and um if you want like you can just live here if that's going to be cheaper for you than being in the dorm. And she is a retired professor, so I think she kind of had a soft spot for me. Um but she is super open about things and like she is 01:14:00spiritual as well, obviously, like pagan stuff. Um and so we see eye to eye on a lot of things and she's kind of a mentor to me [coughing]. Um and she also lets me be who I am like openly. Like she's not my mother she's not my grandma or anything like that so she understands that were housemates, but she is an eccentric person and it's inspired me to do the same.

JE: Um, I'm trying to think. How does it feel to like um live with someone who's older, but who is so open minded, especially with the LGBT community?

W: it's really refreshing. And I think my grandma--I mean my grandma mostly 01:15:00raised me and she's really open to things she's more traditional she's not you know educated like Janice was but [coughing] so I always like got along with old people and they like me because I know how to talk to them and stuff. But Janice, it's really refreshing, and it--she asks me questions about things that she doesn't understand um she asks me to translate it for her basically um and we help each other out in that way. I just think it's interesting to get you know she can say back in the day, like this is what was going on and so it's--we both benefit from the relationship we have with each other.

JE: Okay, do you um--since she was um the creator of that group for SLU um have 01:16:00you--either of you like, what's the word I am looking for, like [pause] has she influenced you to like be involved with any of like the activism in St Louis um with her in anyway?

W: Absolutely yeah, yeah she definitely has. And I think she's also like just--how she's kind of like nonchalant about everything it's really inspired me to you know, like be who I am and I don't know if without Janice I would be so comfortable with who I am because she's so nonchalant and, and I think that goes back to her being an older woman and like how that inspires me in that way, but um I don't remember the question [laughing].

JE: It was sort of um has she like involved you or influenced you to like--

W: Oh yeah.

JE: --partake in um activism in St Louis?

W: Yea and so that's I think that's where I was going with like the her inspiring me to just be who I am um and she [coughing] will like send things my way if there's an event or something that I might be interested in. Um and again, like she's so nonchalant about her activism that it just makes it like a regular day to day thing here and I love it so. She was she had been that way her whole life like um she applied for the peace corps um when she was fresh out of college, but she couldn't do it because the FBI like had a case on her for her activism in college, so she's like an OG activist.

JE: Do you think that's influenced you um to be more involved with activism on campus and in the city?

W: Absolutely yeah, yeah definitely.

JE: Okay, um I guess for some closing reflections and take your time 01:18:00[laughing] um I'm just joking [laughing]. Um what are your hopes for the future of the LGBTQ+ community?

W: I hope that it's just like--I keep using the word mystified, but I feel like that's just the way that it is, um and I hope that it's not that way anymore and--I mean you don't have to come out as straight, and I understand that I'm privileged and being able to not have to come out to my family and the people around me. Um and I just hope that for more people that it's just you know it's just another thing and it doesn't have to be apart--a huge part of your identity or all of your identity in your defining factor. That's what I want for myself and so that's what I hope to make possible for everybody else, because I have friends that have known they're gay their whole life but hasn't officially come out even though everybody knows they are, they haven't officially come out because um of what their family will say, as if their family doesn't already 01:19:00know, but they just don't want to hear it. And so I just want to make it a possibility for everybody, I think it's so sad that some people aren't given that chance at all.

JE: How do you think um like society could be more accepting or like more knowledgeable of the LGBTQ+ community?

W: I think the activism, and like a continuation of that. Um [pause] I think [pause] just like, I think we're on the right track is what I'm saying. Um I think just visibility over time will make it you know, people more accepting. I've seen my grandma in, in my lifetime I've seen her perspective change. Um so 01:20:00yeah I think we're on the right track, I think, just like it will just take time, unfortunately, but you know.

JE: Um what are your thoughts on um the current things happening right now with schools and like I believe it's called the don't say gay um laws and whatever. Um what are your thoughts on those happening?

W: It makes me really mad. Um we're going backwards and it's not fair and I don't understand why it's being allowed. I don't get it. Um It's not good [laughs] bad things are happening, and I am grateful that right now I'm not affected by that, but unfortunately there are people who are. Um I don't know it's disheartening, but in the LGBTQ community, there is a safe place for 01:21:00people, and you know, encouraging them to be loud and encouraging them to live on, I guess. So, um I'm grateful that the LGBTQ community is as strong as it is, um because without it you know who would people have in Texas you know.

JE: So, um what are your thoughts about teaching LGBTQ+ um within schools? Um you know in regards to like the history and also like in like sex ed.?

W: I think it's super important. I think it's very important. Um [clears throat] I think schools pick and choose I mean it's known schools pick and choose what they want to you know indoctrinate us with. Um you have to know 01:22:00about things, even if it doesn't apply to you just have to know about things in order to be a well-rounded person, and it would just make for a smarter population of people to know about the history of LGBTQ. So.

JE: Um what is one thing you wish you would have known what discovering your queer identity?

W: That it was possible. Um that's really what the big hurdle was um in dating, was realizing that like oh like I can actually date a woman like for real I can actually date a woman. and I think I would have a lot sooner, and I would have been a lot happier had I known that it was possible.

JE: Um what was I going to say. [laughing] I just blanked um.

W: It's okay.

JE: I had a really good question in my head. Um okay, so I know you had mentioned um not really seeing a lot of like queer identity within like the media, do you think if you would have seen a lot more, um sort of like what's going on today with like young adult books and like TV shows now including it, do you think that would have maybe helped you um maybe come to terms a lot quicker.

W: Definitely yeah. Definitely. I used to read a lot. Um and now it's like I can't even stand having like, like anybody close to me in my life, you--they know that I can't stand if a movie is like male heavy or like a book is male heavy. I don't want to read from a male's perspective. Um and then I read Song 01:24:00of Achilles in November and it changed my life! It was such a good book and it was just kind of like the whole nonchalant, like you know, gay stuff and I'm like this is awesome and I wish I had it going up, like a lot. I've been recommending my homophobic friends um Song of Achilles without telling them that this gay stuff so. It's a great book and I think like there just needs to be more like nonchalant casual representation of LGBTQ people because that's how I live you know.

JE: Okay, um so what are your thoughts um on, especially young adult books um having a lot more queer stories being presented for like teenagers?

W: I think it's great. Um I have a friend who--this is like back in ruel Missouri--I have a friend, whose little brother saw like Arthur or something 01:25:00with the gay characters and she was saying, like I don't want my little brother question like is there something wrong with me because I like girls. I'm like, well isn't it good for them to be asking questions and like finding out who they are, and like thinking about it. Um I think it's great, and I think like it's a safe space and like--for young adults to read those books um and also like for queer young adults, rather, but then also just for everyone else. Like you can enjoy a queer story and not be queer. Um and I think it's really important just--that goes back again to my point with like the public schools as like, in order to be a more well-rounded person and community like in St Louis in 01:26:00general, you should know about things that don't necessarily involve you.

JE: um so staying on the topic of books, what are your thoughts on um like small bookstores like Left Bank Books and stuff being so prominent in the LGBTQ community. especially um with children's books and young adult books. Um I've noticed, you know through looking that there's a lot more queer representation just within that and, like the programs that they have. So, like what are your thoughts on like small businesses um helping with the queer community in St Louis?

W: I think it's fantastic. I live in Shrewsbury, so I live near Novel Neighbor. Um and I think--I went in there asking for recommendations on like--"Do you know 01:27:00this author?" and she's like "of course I'm lesbian." and I was like okay great! And that's a small, a small store and I think--I mean I, I support small businesses through and through. And I think it's great that there's just a different vibe of like small businesses and um we support small businesses and for small businesses to support us right back is like fantastic. Um and also gives queer people the space, especially for like children's and young adult books, to choose those for you know their children or the young people in their lives. Um and I think it's really important, so.

JE: Alright. What are your wishes, I guess, for small businesses and, like their involvement with activism? Um since I know Left Bank Books is really involved with activism. so like what are your wishes, I guess, for small businesses and 01:28:00their involvement?

W: I just want it to remain possible and I think I mean small businesses wouldn't be able to like remain in business if it didn't have the support of the Community. Um and so I think it's a great sign, in general, that a small business is able to stay in business and still advocate for what they believe in. Um and so I hope that that's the case forever that the Community will make the right decisions and support the right businesses in order you know, for that activism to like continue on. Um If they're doing something you don't like, then you stop supporting the business. If they are doing something you like, then you support them and um you know you're doing that in turn too, you're supporting what they're supporting. And I hope that the Community just continues to make it possible for the businesses.

JE: Okay, um I guess lastly, um is there a lesson you wish to pass down to 01:29:00future generations?

W: I think it just goes back to being like well-rounded and introspective. Um I think like being insightful is probably like the most important skill to have in your whole life, like that's never going to do you wrong. Um and experimenting, especially while you're young, I think it's like--I think--I mean I'm young, but I think throughout your life experimenting and like continuing to try to learn about yourself is really important. Um but I feel so liberated after thinking something about myself and finally putting it into practice and finding it out. And so I think just being introspective and loving other people, even if you don't understand, it's like that's, that's the recipe. [giggles]

JE: Alright, thank you um is there any last maybe comments or things you might want to add?

W: Not, particularly, I don't think so.

JE: Okay, um well thank you so much. Um yeah thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW.