Anum Arshad by Jim Reid

James Reid Interview with Anum Arshad April 27th, 2022 6:00 - 7:30 PM Recorded via Zoom

JR: Um, hello, this is Jim Reid i'm here with them, how do I pronounce your name

AA: Un um

JR: Un um Uh, Are Shad?

AA: Yeah, that's basically right

JR: Sorry I hate being bad with names I'm interviewing um for an oral history assignment I'm going to ask some questions and I, and I really appreciate whatever you want to say be honest or be as straightforward as you want um This is just a class that shouldn't be too stressful So my first question for you is when and where were you born?

AA: I was born in Decatur Illinois in February 27th, 2002. Very small town.

JR: Did you grow up there? I was born in Belleville but I live in St Charles, so I don't know how far away, that is, but Well where did, Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Decatur?

AA: Yes, yep my whole life

JR: So I wanted to ask you the next question, what is your familial or cultural background like?

AA: Um i'm Pakistani American so I was, I was born here in America, but my family um was born in Karachi and Pakistan so and they're also Muslim so like I come from, like a Pakistani Islamic background, but I mean I myself I don't practice Islam like because I just don't believe in it i'm So, like yeah Pakistani There's a lot of things that I could talk about there, I mean if there's anything that you want to ask me about that, then

JR: Do you, so I assume you have family in Pakistan, that you, you're close to or that you talk to Um I'm the same I was born in a Christian family I don't really follow it either, so glad, glad to hear it doesn't matter what religion you're part of, if you don't like it then it is not your thing

JR: What do you, what do you identify as within the LGBT community?

AA: Um I'm kind of I’m not so sure yet I'm kind of, either bisexual or pans-sexual So, like I know I like both genders For sure I, I’m not sure like if, I’m like I’m just like not sure if I’m like bi or pan life if I’m like necessarily like open to anyone and everyone or if I’m just you know both, both genders

JR: And this is for my own knowledge, so that I can have an understanding of what is, what is, uh, the definition of pan?

AA: um So pan sexual is defined as you know, like well a short definition, for it would be hearts in all parts so basically you don’t care at all what the gender, uh so basically they um date, regardless of the gender, like you know, like transgenders, uh, non binary You Know they just don’t care what is down there, essentially

JR: I, i've heard the term before but i've never actually gotten, uh, I’ve never gotten, it’s nice to get a definition Sorry I get a little bit nervous I, I…

AA: That’s fair A lot of people don't understand the definition of pans actually, and a lot of people have asked me So, I mean yeah it's understandable that you don't know what it means, and I mean I appreciate like asking about it, rather than just assuming or making jokes about it and saying that it's a cookware fetish

JR: Well I've never heard it referred to that way I was raised in a pretty conservative house Republican, pretty not crazy ignorant, but just not, not the kind of thing we would talk about is this kind of stuff It wasn’t necessarily evil, but it wasn't a comfort thing so I'm trying to make up for all that, as I grew up And classes like this are the perfect way to, to learn about it I've learned a lot, I've had a lot of conversations and I'm glad I'm having another one Thank you um What, what did you, the journey to find your identity look for you? Have you connected with a stem of different identities?

AA: I'm sorry, can you repeat that

JR: Yeah Um, what did the journey to finding your identity, what did the journey to find your identity look like, for you?

AA: Okay um well I first started questioning it So it was actually kind of complicated because So I sort of started questioning it back in middle school, but that was back when I was very like religiously hardcore religiously conditioned and I was very influenced by everything that my parents told me because I mean I lived with them, obviously, and I was young, and I was naive, and I mean I didn't know anything about the world, I was constantly at home, and I only knew what my parents told me about the world, so I basically All that I knew was what my parents told me so basically what they would tell me is that being gay is wrong, which is a horrible thing to tell anyone And so you know if I had you know, like I would start to get feelings for a girl, in like I think that happened in seventh grade, maybe even in sixth grade actually and I just like push them away, and I was like what is happening to me and I was like I just like kind of denied it I kept denying it was happening, and I would just like No, this is just like I basically gas-lighted myself, and I was like this is a phase, and I was like nah this, this isn't this isn't really happening oh I probably just think she's pretty or something like I don't know But it wasn't the fit that wasn't the case like I just like I felt a certain way, every time she was around, and you know it was just like she made me smile, and it was just it was just yeah it was just It was different, it was different than you know, a phase, so I never really admitted it at the time and I never ended up admitting it in middle school, it took a long time It took years, because in, I mean in middle school, I was still hardcore religiously conditioned so um I think it wasn’t until probably eighth grade or so, until I got to High School, that I finally started to accept the fact that I was not straight and I think it was like the people that, like the friends that I started making, and you know the company that I started to keep and I was just like, I started to surround myself like with people that were more like me Like you know, not straight and I was like, look they’d like made me see that I’m, you know, it’s okay to be this way and that there’s nothing wrong with you know, liking someone of the same sex And that you know, all of the religious conditioning that I was growing up with is bullshit and that I need to like get it out of, drilled out of my brain And I mean like luckily, since I was you know, surrounded by such a great company, I was finally able to get it drilled out of my head and then, you know, now I’m able to like you know have like the debates with my parents whenever they say shit like, whenever like, my, my mom doesn’t really make as many comments, but like my dad if he makes comments about like the gay community or something about like if, like a guy is wearing makeup or like dressing Like a female or something like that, and he, like makes comments or something about it, then I like debate with him and, uh kind of you know, challenge him a lot on it and I’m able to like stand up for myself a lot more against them

JR: That’s good to hear Now a question for you and since you were born here in Decatur, you might not have the answer and that’s all right. Is that kind of thinking more prevalent in the Community, where they grew up? Like you said they were born in Pakistan right?

AA: Yes, yes it is um but actually it's also pretty prevalent in Decatur too Like I mean not even, so much so Decatur, as it is, in like well okay so inside decatur there's a smaller town that we live in that's called Forsyth, and it’s like very, I’d say like pretentious rich bitch So basically, it’s like where okay, like basically the Muslim community that lives there, okay, obviously any of the Muslim community is automatically going to be homophobic because it's against Islam to be gay, which is the dumbest thing ever but like it's just what it is um So yeah pretty much if the brown community in general, brown people a lot of the times, especially the older generation are homophobic a lot of the times and it's just you know, like it's Just the small town, it's a small town small mind so yeah, Decatur Lots of Republicans, lots of Trump supporters, lots of hatred over there.

JR: Feel free, feel free to be open, because honestly I wouldn't be taking a class like this if I voted for a guy like that.

AA: Yeah, it was a nightmare. yeah I know it was definitely like a breath of fresh air coming to St Louis. It was just like oh my God, I can be Brown and gay, like it was it was really nice because and the high school that I went to oh my God that was so bad, it was it was in motorola which is in an even smaller town, than Forsyth so Morea is like minutes from Forsyth and it's like on the countryside and okay obviously countryside ,so ultimate republican guns nation where all of the trumpies and all of the farmers and all of them, all of the hicks are, so, so, so obviously going to school there you know, terrorists jokes you know gay jokes, bomber jokes, things like that. It was a fucking nightmare.

JR: Yeah I’ll ask this question then um which is going to be later now, but now that you're talking about the Community, you went to school in. Have you found a group of people at UMSL, have you found that the people you encounter who, who you met that know you’re gay, did you find that being in this area is more tolerable or more friendly?

AA: 100% way more tolerable. Everyone here is so much nicer than over there and it's just like I feel like I can actually be myself over here and I feel so much more comfortable around the people here and they are so much more respectful and easy to talk to. It’s definitely easier to make friends here.

JR: Yeah, I know what the town you're, what you came from, you’re from is like because once you get further west from the Missouri river the more they become redneck, hicks. Stolen election, Q kind of people. So I’m glad that you’re living in a more, uh, you’re in a more comfortable environment than you were before. Oh, I want to ask you if it's not too personal do you ever do have any experiences that really stuck with you in terms of people who knew you’re out that wasn’t a good experience? I’m just curious for my own personal knowledge to hear an experience.

AA: When I found out that I was like when I was like sure pretty much about my sexuality I, and I was like you know, and I was surrounded with the right people and stuff I, I didn’t hide it. I, I just you know, I was open about it and I didn’t care. However, obviously I still haven’t told my parents because you know, they’re Muslim so like you know that’s not, that’s not gonna happen um. But like anyway, uh, yeah at school, oh my god, this was literally something that could be in like a teen drama or some shit but like there was this exchange student that came in high school and my gosh she was so beautiful and like as soon as I saw her I just like immediately fell for her, and I mean pretty much everyone did, but like you know anyway, I, um, I became friends with her first and I tried to like, you know, kind of like asked her like, on a, on a date like I asked her out for like coffee or something and I don't think she really understood that I was asking her out on a date, I because I just said, like would you want to go out to Starbucks sometime but I don’t think she understood that I was asking her out on a date like I don’t think she understood that. And somehow word like, such a small high school, somehow word got around that I was going on a date with an exchange student and next thing you know people are telling other people that I’m trying to make her gay. So man everyone thinks I’m a shit bag for the rest of the school year, everyone is shunning me, everyone is just, just you being stone cold assholes to me, and just making like remarks at me and I’m like are you fucking serious this is, this literal bullshit. This was not what I was trying to do. I was like, I was like okay, first of all, I was getting some fruity vibes from her. Okay, so I was like just trying to like spend some time with her maybe you know see where she, where she was you know I like see where she was at and then like literally a couple days later, or something some guy asked her like homecoming or something and she said yes, and I was like, heartbroken literally heartbroken because I had like a whole thing planned out. I had like a song planned out that I wanted to sing to her, and I wanted to like ask her to homecoming with it. And then the plan was foiled, because that idiot asked her out, and this guy, this guy was such a doofus too, like literally fucking idiot. Anyway that’s besides the point.

JR: Well, shit happens. It sucks.

AA: Yeah, well that was probably like one of the most scarring experiences of high school.

JR: So you have never had never had any hostile or I mean that's that's not the, I know that's an uncomfortable story, but you've never been harassed or anything like that have you?

AA: Like physically harassed?

JR: No, I meant like people who. Has anyone ever I guess, no one would know but have you ever had anyone tell you something like you're going to hell or or have you ever had a conversation like that, with someone.

AA: Oh actually I think so yeah. I feel like that's definitely been said to me, at some point. I don't remember, though, because I never take those things seriously and I kind of laugh at them.

JR: just wanted to find out what because it adds to know what your experience has been so that's that, sorry you went through that I mean it's like a bad it's like a bad sitcom gag where, where one character, wher one thinks another one’s gay then this whole little five minute thing where there, oh I’m so sorry.

JR: What is your college experience been like as a queer student?

AA: I'm better than my high school experienced by a landslide. it's definitely been way easier to find more queer students it's so so much easier oh my God literally high school was like straight kid central. Everyone was straight, it was such a nightmare um but like yeah it's definitely so so much easier to find queer students and it's it's so nice because I mean like it's like a better like bigger Community here and it's like like people, you can like not only like, not only like you know, maybe have relationships with but like even like also be friends with like you know and I like i've made a lot of like a friends and, like those friendships are like some of the best ones i've had they're literally so so solid like just rate

JR: Is there, um, a student organization at UMSL?

AA: Yes, the gay organization is a PRISM.

JR: Are you a member or no?

AA: Yes

JR: Right. So you, you've already told me you never told your parents who have who, who is someone that, who have you shared your identity with?

AA: I have told my sister and she is actually accepting of it. Yeah, actually I did try telling my mother, but she gaslighted me completely and she literally told me, like she completely derailed me and she said no you're not. She was like you're too obsessed with guys And I couldn't tell her I couldn't just you know I couldn't just tell her outright mother, you have no idea how much I love boobs

JR: Yeah, it's it's funny how they try to convince you that it's all something in your mind when you know who you are, and you were always

AA: Always you don't know how i'm feeling like it's, it's really stupid to be telling someone else like what they are like that's just so fucked up to me but that's exactly what my parents do all the fucking time. So that's what she did and I never tried to bring it up again to her

JR: I'm hoping at some point, in your life you're there, you're able to tell them and things are, will go smoothly, but I don't know your family, so I can't I can't predict how that would go so. By the, by the look on your face it's probably something that you don't see happening or no, do you see yourself ever actually trying to tell them? I mean you said you already tried once you see yourself sitting down and saying look listen, this is how it is.

AA: If I end up wanting to marry a woman then, then I will have no choice but to sit down and tell them, this is what's going to happen, I’ve fallen in love with a woman and I want to be here. And I, So

JR: The question, then you would you if you had someone in you had like a family get together, would you be comfortable enough to take someone or no?

AA: I mean, I would like I, I would be comfortable enough to like I would want to take them I would want them to like experience with me and like you know enjoy those with me, but like first of all, it's also them, they would depend on them, and it would also depend on Unfortunately, would also depend on my family. Because then they'd probably be like all whiny bitches about it and I wouldn't want you know I wouldn't want her to like show up and then everyone being like assholes to her

JR: I hear that I, I just want everything to go smoothly, for you

AA: Your sound cut out

JR: I know I'm sorry there's other noise going on.

AA: Oh.

Jim Reid: I was trying to mute it while you were talking so I had more to say. So, um do you have any specific supportive figures that you can talk to about everything?

AA: Um, I have a counselor that is back in Decatur. I usually talk to her about a lot of stuff. Um. I talked to my sister a lot and then whatever friends that I think might help in this situation,

JR: That’s good. Um. Did you have so I know backtrack, but do you have anyone that you, was really, so you said, that high school was shit town, was bad. Did you have anyone that was there for you back then that you still talk to now?

AA: Yes.

JR: That’s good to hear. This next question. What does coming out mean to you?

AA: Coming out means not being ashamed of who you are and not being afraid, not being afraid, Basically wanting to put your identity out there and show who you are.

JR: Did you when, when you first came out to the first person you told how did it feel for you?

AA: Strange, very, very strange. Like I was like wow that’s, that’s new.

JR: I feel like, I feel like at that moment, you had something that you could probably tell someone that you knew about yourself that no one else did, and that you are comfortable with, and now is the true you can you finally had a chance to share it with someone.

AA: Yeah. Yeah.

JR: I don't know, but I just that's just how I feel.

AA: So yeah that's pretty much it that's pretty much what it was.

JR: What are you, so we already kind of talked about this, what are your experiences with romantic relationships?

AA: Oh gosh

JR: I know that's one of those questions

AA: They’re, they're terrible. Um, yeah, no I have not had good, good experience with romantic relationships at all. Uh, probably because I’ve been mentally unstable for most of my life. And most of the people that I picked had just been walking red flags. I don't know why pick those but I guess that's just my type, for some reason. Um, but yeah I mean, then, I feel like the decent people that are not walking red flags just don't seem to gravitate towards me or want me. So it's just, I kind of have. kind of grown up with the take what I can get basis which is really fucked up and not what I should be doing or should have been doing, but it kind of is what I have been doing and it's definitely led to a lot of heartbreak and a lot of toxic relationships and just a lot of messy messy shit

JR: Yeah relationships can be messy and unfortunately um that's the way life goes so i'm sorry to hear that but I'm sure I'm sure there's plenty of time for you. Unlike me. I’m in my thirties so I’m about done.

AA: Oh.

JR: I asked you this um you brought it up on your own my next question was going to be about the what was what was the attitude towards the LGBT community in your family growing up, but I mean, I guess, I can ask um do you have any grandparents, would you ever tell them or?

AA: I have a grandpa. Um no, I don’t think I could tell him. I don’t think he would be able to understand if I told him.

JR: Were you aware of your identity as part of the LBGTQ community from a young age? Yeah Middle School?

AA: Yeah. Middle School. Well like I said I denied it, but like you know somewhat aware you know.

JR: Now, was there, like a particular moment when you realized, I mean I said, you know you realized in middle school but.. AA: The timeline is kind of blurred for me honestly I don't oh wait no I remember actually oh my God it's actually so embarrassing. I think I was in eighth grade or ninth grade. It's either eighth or ninth grade. Um, A no I, it was like, This look, look, I suppose I’d rather not say

JR: That’s fine. I respect that.

JR: So question how would you say the media represented the community when you were growing up versus how you see it represented today?

AA: Oh, my God it is so much better represented now like, it was not there at all before. Like it was not represented. Like, in the least bit. And when it was represented, it was just basically in a mocking manner, I feel like because I mean if you take a look at like some of the old shows and movies and stuff like that if they mentioned gays or anything like that it’s to make fun of them or like yeah, like pretty much. So it’s not, it’s not like you know just talk about them or represent them in like a serious manner, but now there’s actual representation and there’s like gay characters and you know, like, like lead to gay characters like major characters and like even show that are based around like gays and it’s just so so much better, like and I feel like it’s progressively getting better too.

JR: I, all I can think about when you said that there's a character in Will and Grace that is the first time I ever saw the LBGTQ community. Is alright if I said gay.

AA: Yeah.

JR: Yeah I know, I know, I don’t know if, I just wanted to make sure an, came across a gay representation was that, and now watching TV today it’s so much better, so much more pivotal so much more better represented. And it's nice to see that some people are fine it's like it's nice to see that slowly but surely, I think a lot of society, except for the people who are too far gone, are starting to fade into a more progressive minded. I feel like 15 years ago there would be no, like no one on that side that would be tolerant. Now it’s only like the people who you know will never be better.

AA: And those people it’s just like you know, fuck you whatever let’s just forget about you.

JR: Yeah. So, I wanted to, since we're talking about those kind of people do you as a gay person feel let down when you hear about stuff like Texas or Florida.

AA: Yes. Yes, oh my god. Very very let down. Very. Let down is an understatement. Like cuz I said I thought we were making progress, I thought we were like headed in the right direction and then shit like that happens. It’s just like what the fuck?

JR: And I don't, I don't buy the bullshit that it's about being able to tell your kids yourself. Those people are never going to raise their kids to be tolerant. It’s about, it's about someone teaching their kid to be someone that they don't want you to be or I mean it's just it's just sad, so I mean do you, do you see stuff like that and, um, find yourself more inspired to be active in the community or do…

AA: Yes, it does make me want to like you know just take action and do something, but I, I mean like it's like what can we do where we're in Missouri and Texas is like so it's all the way down there Florida is also all the way down there what power do we have like we're we're students and what, what power could a few students have over a whole government. It’s just….

JR: Yeah plus we live in Missouri. They’ve been going more they've been going more trump country since like Obama, so I don't think Missouri, Missouri sucks to live in if you have any liberal beliefs, I mean whatever you call it left leaning if you have anything that isn't conservative it's hard to have an election there your way, so you can't even win on a State level but I by taking this class and doing stuff like this is, it’s the best I can think of so. I just hope I can do more. Did uh, legalization of gay marriage um, what, did you consider that a moment, like other people did it affect your outlook on the country or, or let me not say country, society when it became legal?

AA: That was a long time ago wasn't it? Yeah well yeah so I was pretty young when that happened so like I said so the religious conditioning was going on. So I didn't really know what was going on at the time. I would just like, oh gay marriage, that's wrong, which by the way, that yeah I hated little me I hated the little me so much. Little me, I know I was going through it, I was getting hardcore religious shit drilled into my head and it was toxic as fluff but like I needed to get a mind on my own for petes fucking sake I was like, yeah, so I didn't obviously know what was going on, I had no idea and I didn't have a mind of my own like I said and so yeah but now that I look back at it obviously i'm like fuck yeah, as you fucking should this should have been done a long time ago and and never should have been in question, obviously it never should have been like up for like you know, as it should it be legal or nah this net shouldn't be a fucking question why is it a fucking question like are you serious right now, like that's so stupid literally.

JR: How did the um series, So what social movements have you seen progress throughout your life? Is there any particular social movement that you follow, you follow or have been a part of?

AA: Black lives matter for sure Black Lives Matter is probably one of the most, if not the most important social movement to me. When the George floyd incident happened I was completely fucked up and I, I mean well it's, not that I couldn't believe that it happened because I could believe that it happened with this police police brutality is just a thing that has been happening for like so many fucking years and, and it's such a huge problem that yeah anyway um and then, and then, after that it's just like shit just constantly kept fucking happening like way more way way way more than like it was happening like way more often, and it was just like or maybe it was just getting reported more I don't know probably that might have been what it was, it was It was just horrendous like it was and then, and then there was like it was like the whole nation was just so fucking divided, because there was the whole there was black lives matter people here, and then there was the stupid republican asked blue lives matter folks here and they were basically you know, obviously, fighting against the people that cared about human rights and cared about people, you know actually living, regardless of their skin color and then there were the people that cared about like careers

JR: Yeah I was gonna say that you're arguing a, a race versus a job.

AA: Blue lives blue lives do not exist, like shut the Fuck up, that is not a fucking life black lives are actual lives blue lives are not lives like what is this like itt's not Avatar up in here like it's not even like blue lives do not exist, that is a career, you can choose your career, you do not choose your skin color but it just like it yeah so black lives matter i'm definitely like huge advocate for that I definitely spread a lot of awareness, for that and I i'm on like social media and I like yeah I yeah I care a lot about i'm human rights and just yeah things like that

JR: Now, has your racial or ethnic background affected your your queer experience?

AA: What do you mean?

JR: So I, have you found… common let me rephrase that to make sure I gave it to you right or read that to make… Has your race, or I guess it’s just saying, have you been are you, do, have you ever encountered a different opinion because of being different. Like you’re Pakistani, has that ever changed or made someone’s opinion of you being out differ. I mean, I guess, since you're you're from, your, your parents are from Pakistan, so I mean I guess I don’t know, the question, the question is hard to explain, I mean I get what I was first trying to use some questions on the script I get what the person's trying to ask, but I just you don't understand it i'm with you. Some of these, some of these I'm coming up with some I'm using for from a script I'm just trying to figure some of them out that one was pretty confusing I apologize. Well not confusing

AA: Oh that's okay I mean i'm trying to understand it

JR: Yeah I was, I was, I guess, I guess, they were trying to say so, if someone was an African American person of color a lesbian person of color, would they face more adversity, than a white lesbian?

AA: Oh

JR: I think that's what they're trying to say

AA: I think like that's different

JR: Yeah I, I think that's the way, that's how they they were phrasing it and just didn't get it until now

AA: Okay. Well, I mean for me I don't. I don't think well, sometimes I do think that. Sometimes, sometimes I do think that I, dating options are kind of like less for me like in general, not only just in the not only like queer wise, but like just in general, I feel like i'm picked less because i'm brown you know it's just there's just a lot of stereotypes in shit like surrounding brown women and just brown women are and seen as as beautiful as others and it's just you know it's a lot of, it's just a lot of societal bullshit that surrounds, um, and goes into like the dating pool so yeah I feel like it definitely does affect the white women definitely have the upper hand i'm not gonna lie about that.

JR: Yeah they are. I guess it goes white men and white women. They, they're the ones that get away with the most bullshit. Yep I acknowledge white privilege, just to get that out there um so we, so going on to the, about your race or uh, country of origin or your background, have you ever been assaulted as an adult you said he dealt with in high school, have you ever been verbally assaulted for your skin color as an adult?

AA: I think so yeah. I feel like I have, but just not as often. It’s just like you know, it's been very occasional and might have happened like once. Maybe if I remember correctly, well you know, like it not here, not here, but like back in Decatur, you know, obviously because that town it’s just like I told you small minded Trump supporters yeah.

JR: Do you um, do you live there when you’re not at school, or are you living in the area?

AA: Um, yeah when I’m not at school here I live in Decatur at my parent’s house

JR: Do you, so do you think you’d end up trying to move out of Decatur and live in a place where you know there’s, there’s a much better climate for…?

AA: Yes, I have literally been like looking at that for years. The problems are just, oh, my medications, as I have multiple health problems and, it's like all, it's just like all my medications is just like so expensive and I'm just a very expensive person to take care of and I guess it’s just something that I cannot afford myself right now so that’s why this is the only thing that I can do at the time so. I will be working over the summer, though probably.

JR: Do you have like a, do you have, so you said something about work, do you have a dream goal? Uh a dream job, the job you want to do when you’re done with school?

AA: Um I mean if we’re talking dream jobs I would love to be on broadway. I, I mean I want to be a theater performer more than anything. Like I know it’s like far fetched and super out there, but like uh, yeah it’s, I definitely feel like the theater, theater in general, just has like such little representation for people of color and like, especially the brown people, it’s just like, it’s just so lacking and I definitely want to help change that and I mean like I know like I had one person on the stage is not going to help, but like, I mean being a step in the right direction, at least, and I could like you know. Hopefully if I, I’ve also been like playing with the idea of starting like a theater company or something like that, so you know, I have some things in mind.

JR: I mean, I think working on Broadway would be great, If you like theater.

AA: Yeah I mean

JR: I, I do so..

AA: I love theater

JR: Do you get a chance to go down to, do you go to any shows during the season?

AA: I, I go to shows quite a bit. I haven’t, I don't think I've been to any really here, I went to see the telephone at UMSL, but um I haven't really been to any like in the city here just because i'm still figuring out everything. Um, but yeah definitely like I had, I had, I have so like I had so much, so much theater going on, like last, last year. Yeah last year, I had so much theater going on.

JR: So I wanted to ask, and it isn't really important, but what is your favorite stage show or musical?

AA: West side story

JR: Is

AA: What?

JR: I've, i've, i've only seen the, the, the film version. I have never seen West side story on theater or on a stage

AA: It’s literally it's just so it's so magical I literally love it so much, and I want to be in it so bad. Like Maria is like a dream role.

JR: Plus the stage doesn’t have, plus the stage version doesn't have that Ansel Elgort, or whatever his name is

AA: He is not on stage at all; he's like he's not on the stage version. That's a good point though. I wouldn’t want to watch a version with him. I wouldn't want to watch a version with him. Funny

JR: Do you think, do you think technology has affected the way you communicate with people in the community?

AA: Yeah probably a little bit yeah.

JR: What is your, what do you currently do for a living?

JR: When your not at school or I guess

AA: Um i'm a job hopper so, it’s always something different honestly. Not going to lie.

JR: I have, my dad has a family business so fortunately I've only had the one job, but unfortunately it's the family business so.

AA: Nice

JR: Speaking of, do you, I never, I never got to ask what's your major, what are you trying to major in?

AA: Um well right now it's Business Administration, but hopefully trying to change it, because I hate it

JR: Yeah, I tried to do business classes, it's not for me

AA: it's a nightmare

JR: Um, alright, so now, I need to get into a little bit of what we talked about, but this is a good question. Um, how do you think the political climate has changed um,: the current political climate has changed things with the community?

AA: Oh, my God it is so divided. It is literally cut in fucking half like oh my gosh. It’s like, it’s not even like, because it used to be like you know there used to be like you know some sort of a spectrum and there were like some sort of tolerable, there was some sort of tolerance of f like people's you know beliefs on like the If the if they lean like a little bit on the other side of the spectrum, but no like if it's like okay if you're on the left. If you're on the Left I'm not going to respect you at all if you're on the right, if you're on the right I'm not going to respect you at all if you’re on the left that's just what it is. But like it doesn't matter where on the left you are it doesn't matter where on the right you are if you're anywhere if you're anywhere on the left it's okay you're cool if you're anywhere on the left it all and i'm also on the Left it's okay we're cool. If you anywhere on the right I’m also on the right and i'm also on the right it's okay we're cool we're on the same side is the best how divided, it is that's how like it's like literally split that's how solid split it is it's like so it's just it's such a it's it's so fucked up is where

JR: I would say, I think that there are people who are starting to finally, I, would you say that, So let me ask you this question: Donald trump you know, Donald Trump is an asshole do you think that people are seeing… So let me, let me, sorry, let me rephrase it like this, so Donald Trump is the kind of person who's followers are anti LGBTQ anti black lives matters a llot of them are I will say that his craziness has sparked a larger growth in acceptance for the community would you? Have you noticed that in your, i'm just saying that, in my personal experience

AA: I feel like it's made the divide bigger

JR: That’s fair. I mean it is, it is bigger, but I just know some people in my personal life, who are now democrats because of that, because of him, so I didn't know if you found people who you knew who weren't as accepting that now are because they've been driven away from the other side, so let me start So if I was a republican and I knew that everyone was a republican was like Trump and I cared about people like the gay community, I am now trying to become more progressive trying to be progressive minded haven't noticed any of that and your own personal experience

AA: Wait what can you repeat?

JR: Sorry. With how crazy Donald is, I know people in my life, who have who have become a registered democrat or they're voting democrat now or they're not even doing democrat they're voting away from trump and part of the thing that they discovered the act of becoming more left minded was how wrong they've been about the LGBT community have you noticed anyone in your life or have you encountered anyone who you've known in the past that's that's changed

AA: No, No I don't think so. Anyone that's admitted to it

JR: I guess it's I guess it's easier to ask a question when you consider yourself someone who's changed without thinking about the fact that the person you're asking might not so I guess that was a, I guess that was more of you have to be in my shoes and see what i've seen to understand it, but I can understand that you don’t.

AA: feel like, no one would really like if it was anyone that knew me, then that would probably not admitted to me because of how outspoken I am about how much I hate trump and how much of a bitch I think he is and how like anyone that votes for him is wrong so basically I, okay, the thing is, is that I don't associate with people who vote for him, I don't, if I find out that someone that I was friends with or talk to or anything voted for him or support him I will immediately unfriend that person. I literally don't, I don't take any excuses because it's not, it's not so something, so much so as just like a political in difference it's just that they decided that raci, racism misogyny homophobicness and sexual assault and all of that wasn't a deal breaker and that's not Okay, for me, so I can't be friends with someone like that So that's why I'm not friends with anyone who's a trump supporter or anyone that votes for Trump.

JR: Well, it just sucks that, itt just sucks that we have, the other guy, I mean he's not that evil at all, but it doesn't, it doesn't help that he kind of sucks too.

AA: that's true but he's definitely better

JR: Right I'd rather have the guy who can't remember to say million instead of billion than the guy who brags about grabbing women. So, so let me ask you the reverse of the last question. You've noticed that the divide has gotten bigger. Have you noticed hostility towards Community has gotten louder? Or when it happened, did you notice any growth in hostility?

AA: Um. You know I actually feel like the hostility has kind of backed off a little bit. I feel like because a lot of, um I think that, because of the representation and because people are like you know not afraid to you know speak their truth and actually stand up for themselves. People are kind of like you know, well shit, I can’t just you know say whatever the fuck I want about gays now and I can’t just be throwing this around, however, I mean they’re obviously still are you know stupid ass high school boys that you know throw around that f a g word and shit. And they still call each other gay for no fucking reason, in place of the word stupid, by the way. It doesn’t make sense um, but yeah, it maybe it’s just because I am in college right now, but I feel like I’ve definitely seen less hostility.

JR: Oh, I mean UMSL is a pretty safe uh environment I've noticed.

AA: That’s true, that’s true too.

JR: I mean I've only encountered I think there's only been one person in the class of mine that was out with his pol, politics and he wasn't even that bad, but he still voted for trump so

AA: Ew

JR: What?

AA: Ew

JR: So, what is your experience, have you, do you do anything with the St Louis community?

AA: What do you mean?

JR: Like have you do you, have you ever been to St Louis pride, or have you ever been to an event, like something like the St. Louis community puts on. Like have you taken a role with the community?

AA: Um I have not been to St Louis pride because i'm not here in the summer um, but I would love to um, the community I took in like a march that was going on back for Palestine. Um. It was quite a while ago, though, like I think that was yeah, that was like before the semester, even began, um, but year I took part in that, but I haven’t been too involved with the community and just because I mean I’m still getting to know the area still settling and not entirely sure how to navigate, not entirely sure of everything that goes on around here either so…

JR: I understand that So have you noticed, speaking of communities, have you noticed other communities that feel marg, feel marginalized or feel trivialized or oppressed, have you noticed any other communities, the relationship between the queer community and the, so like black lives matter and um, something like PRISM. Those are two organizations. Have your seen sort of an ally ship, a common ground against um well boldface bigotry bold faced archaic beliefs. Both still face hatred. Have you noticed that black lives matter,do they have a positive support for the gay community?

AA: Yeah. Yeah I think so. This is a silly question um do you have many gay, do you have many gay friends and lesbian friends like do you have good relationship all all the gay people you know because I know there's like a common there's like a common stereotype that gay, some gay men hate lesbians there's a show that made a joke about it Modern Family

JR: Oh

AA: Oh fuck that show

JR: Oh wow fair enough.

AA: I hate that show.

JR: I didn't say I like it, I was just saying it was a clip I saw. It's fair to judge an entire idea but I was just wondering if if you ever, if you have a good relationship with everyone, you know, in the Community

AA: Not everyone, I know, like obviously like not like I’m, honestly yeah like almost like. It’s just like you know you there's like a bond that you, there's a connection that you form whenever you see some another like a fellow gay it's just like, it's like it's like you're gay, I'm gay too, what's up and then you just you know, you kind of like immediately form a friendship it's just, it's pretty nice it's pretty beautiful

JR: That's good to hear um I uh, So, is there anyone back so have, do you do you, so you do most of your hanging out with the gay friends you have through Prism, or did you meet them through being in St Louis through class or?

AA: Um both, But yeah uh first I actually did meet them through prism and then some more later on in the school year

JR: Do you think the pandemic has hurt your ability to connect with anyone in the Community

AA: Yes, definitely definitely it for sure, made it hard. But, uh it was, it was pretty easy to make friends, when I came here though, this was my first semester, though so it wasn’t like the pandemic wasn’t like super harsh, here when I started.

JR: Do they still make you wear a mask on campus?

AA: No they're not required, I still do sometimes, though

JR: How do you feel that UMSL is an inclusive Campus?

AA: It's an extremely inclusive campus. It's one of the most diverse schools i've ever seen, and that's, I feel like it’s very, it’s not talked about enough for that I, mean it’s just, it's amazing how many different backgrounds, there are there's so so many like not only is there, like so many different colors when you look around, but it's just like there's just so many different countries that people are from, like that you can like learn about and it's just, it's just so interesting

JR: Do you, do you think that being part of something like prism has helped make your time in St Louis easier?

AA: Yeah yeah I think so I don't think that there were as as as many events as there should have or could have been but like I think it was definitely a good experience

JR: And when was the first time, you actually felt like part of the Community?

AA: Like the LGBTQ community?

JR: Yeah when was the first time that you were able to sit down, say, these are a bunch of people who are out like I am and they're, they're part of the shame Community than I am?

AA: The very first meeting honestly, it was just it was wonderful I mean everyone was so sweet like and we all like instantly connected, and it was so much fun like we all laughed so much and I had such a good time it was it was great

JR: That's, that's, Is it an organization inclusive or exclusive to people who aren't in the Community, but are allies of the Community?

AA: Uh, no it's inclusive.

JR: Question: does it annoy you when people say they're allies?

AA: No. It definitely does not annoy me at all, it actually makes me happy. Because, then I know that they're supportive of like then I know that they're not just people that I don't, I don't know if they support us or if they're homophobic

JR: I know it makes sense and I, but I just know some people hate being patronized and I encountered someone like that so that's why I asked

AA: Patronizing? That’s not even patronizing.

JR: I mean I guess they feel like I don't know I guess I used the wrong word they help.. Some people have told me that you're being too chivalrous because I call myself an ally and I just didn't know if it actually bothered you guys that we consider ourselves, that people like me consider ourselves allies, of the Community because we want…

AA: Was it someone from the community that said that?

JR: No, no it was, it was a conservative friend that I'm not friends with anymore

AA: Okay that's why. Of course it was it was a straight person that said that

JR: Question to you, are you, the, you.. So you said that Prism is inclusive so that means it's the Community or is it exclusive, community only?

AA: No, It’s inclusive to all.

JR: Alright, so… Do you have um, Do you have any did do you, sorry, what was, how I am going, do you think um having straight friends makes it easier to be comfortable, knowing that they're different than you in terms of who they love, but they still accept you for who you are. So, so when you went through all that in high school does seeing someone who is a straight person, who says i'm there for you i'm, I want to be your friend, I want to support you, does that make you feel a little bit better from all the bullshit you went through in high school or?

AA: Yeah, yeah it does.

JR: So this question, I think I've already asked, but I'm going to ask it. Has there ever been a time when racial dynamics affected your identity? So like… JR: So like

AA: What does that mean?

JR: So has there ever been a time when you've felt, I guess like do you feel when there's tension with racial dynamics, do you find that the tension affects the, your Community also I mean well your Pakistani, so like when there's tension between, like something like Mike Brown, do you find when there's tension like that, within a Community or a city or a society that the gay community also takes the brunt or feels it?

AA: No, no, I honestly race issues are for me, I completely keep separate from, from like LBGTQ Issues

JR: Were you ever, do you ever feel pressured or expected to provide an opinion on issues facing the LGBT community?

AA: Could you give me an example?

JR: Um. Someone walks up to you, and says you're, you're out, I want your opinion on what's going on in Florida, have you ever felt pressure to answer questions like that, because someone was straight and you weren't and they wanted your opinion?

AA: Yeah little bit sometimes, yeah I guess

JR: So, have you been out so to answer this net to ask this question first i've asked, have you been further West in the Missouri then then St Louis? Enough to know what it’s like.

AA: I don't think so.

JR: So my, that question was going to be, if you feel like the attitude changes as you get further West and I'll tell you it probably it really does so, this probably, St Louis is probably, St. Louis and Kansas City are probably the only two blue counties in Missouri.

AA: Rip

JR: Yeah I mean if you will get the last election, I think every county in Missouri went red, except for St Louis and Jackson county which is Kansas city, so. Okay, so here’s a good one. You said you’re not religious, have you encountered religious people who are part of the community? And how has your experience been if you have?

AA: Religious people like actually religious people?

JR: Yes, so someone who actually goes to church every Sunday but it's also a member of the community.

AA: Um. I feel like I might have but I don’t remember. I know that they exist.

JR: Yeah

AA: Cuz I’ve heard I’ve heard that they exist

JR: Well a priest at my church, when I was in high school he actually was able to quit becoming a priest to go live in San Francisco, because he was gay and he's like I want to live the gay lifestyle, the best he can.

AA: As he should

JR: Is there uh, speaking of that, speaking of San Francisco, are there any communities or places, you would like to go, are there any monuments or establishments that are part of queer history that you think would be important for you to visit?

AA: I…

JR: Stonewall would be the only thing I could probably give you as an example, if you know what that is

AA: Uh, I actually don't know of any like important monuments, or anythingTo be honest I don't really know.

JR: So do you, do you think there’s any moment tht you can think of in, in the community that’s an event that’s happened that will go down in history books, that you saw first, or you experienced, maybe saw on TV is there any, is there any recent community issues or events that have happened that you think will go down in history book as a other than legalizing marriage?

AA: Probably that. Good or bad? Yeah, probably what's going on in Texas and Florida right now.

JR: Do you think that, do you think that people, have you ever um, sorry it’s… Do you think that people in Florida um are.. Sorry, already asked that, let me ask you another question. Do you think that we are… Do you think it is over, overstated it to say that they’re indoctrinating children to teach them about sexuality at that age. I mean I know the idea of telling them they can’t say anything at all is wrong, but do you feel like, you feel like children should be able to learn about this at any age. Have you ever had a conversation with someone who was younger than you when they discovered who they were or who they, who they were? So you were in middle school, have you ever encountered someone who was younger? Someone who this law might hurt. Because if you're, if you can't talk to someone and you're stuck in a house where you can't talk to your parents and you want to go talk to your teacher and she can't say anything. I just wondered if you ever talk to anyone who was more open or more out when they were younger.

AA: I don't really get the question

JR: Sorry. Have you ever personally met someone within the Community, that was so young, that was young enough at the age when they felt comfortable enough with who they were that not being able to talk to their teachers or people in their lives because of that rule would hurt, would have hurt them?

AA: The rule in Texas, Florida? Yeah, actually. Yeah. Especially nowadays. Yeah

JR: I think kids are even more comfortable being , or even parents, a lot of parents, not a lot but there's a good chunk of parents that are now letting their children be who they want to be, and I think that's good now do you think um, so, do you think we're going in uptick in the positive direction, do you think Americans in terms of the community are going to the positive or the negative direction?

AA: Negative

JR: Well, I mean, do you think that we're gonna, do you expect to see stuff like Florida and Texas happening all over the country?

AA: No, because I mean okay now. So I feel like okay Florida and Texas, are very red states and the governors are very like republican so I feel like that is a different, I feel like those are just different cases. However, I could see it happening in maybe a few other states. I don't, I obviously really hope it doesn't, and I would hate to see it happen, but I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if it did. U.m, but I don’t think that would happen to the whole country now.

JR: Yeah sorry about some of the confusion, I just get a little anxious, so I, I, um I'm just trying to, I’ve asked you all the questions I want, I'm just trying to figure a few more. Do you um, would you, have you ever, have your ever met someone famous within the gay community. Have you ever had an experience to come across someone…

AA: Famous Not like super famous, no.

JR: So earlier, you said you felt that St Louis was comfortable, do you think St Louis is inclusive enough to consider a comfort place for people of the Community, coming from out of the city or out of state just based on your experience?

AA: yeah

JR: So do you know, many people have different identities, like you were talking earlier about being pan sexual or bisexual have you encountered many people of various identities within the community?

AA: Yeah

JR: Last question for you, because I think we've concluded Um, do you enjoy the time you spent in St Louis? I know you said you you felt comfortable and you had friends, but do you yourself like St Louis not just in terms of community, but just in general?

AA: Like yes, I love St Louis actually. I love it here so much Actually, this is a really great place to live

JR: What's your favorite place you've been to that, that really makes it fun to know oh i'm living near a big city?

AA: West county mall

JR: That's a nice one

AA: Yeah

JR: So, then, I guess um.. Sorry. Do you um… Oh last question, do you have a role model in your life that has helped you, As a member of the Community, someone who you see embracing it, representing the community. Someone that, that you might see yourself. So example, the generic dancer with the I don't know I don't know I don't know many prominent…

AA: Yeah, I well. Actually, my role model is probably got to be my high school band director she's so so strong she's such an empowered woman and she's like probably the strongest woman i've ever met she's fought through cancer and she's so, she's so young, and she al, she also like always keeps a smile on her face she has to deal with, like some of the most annoying painful ban, band kids every day and she has two, two kids and it’s just like a lot of the stuff that I have seen her go through is just amazing to me, how she’s able to like handle it all. So she’s definitely probably one of the biggest role models.

JR: It’s always good I, my role model, was a teacher uh, was a teacher too, to so teachers are teachers are important and they deserve more praise than some of the other people that get all this overwhelming idolatry and stuff so.

AA: Yes

JR: I'm just glad you didn't say some, I mean it would have been your answer and I wouldn't, I'm just glad you said, someone real it's nice to hear that. I mean I'm sure someone else might have said some famous singer or some, or someone else and that's fine but hearing you say band teacher is, it was refreshing. Yeah I don't know, I guess I just, I just appreciate teachers, so I guess that's it um do you want to figure out, let me turn this off