Clarissa Reel by Tori Kirkiewicz

Transcript--Claire Reel

Narrator: Claire Reel

Interviewer: Tori Kirkiewicz

Interview Date: April 25, 2022

Interview Location: St. Louis, MO on Zoom

Length: 1:41:47

TK: My name is Tori Kirkiewicz, I am interviewing Claire Reel. This is a community interview for my Queer Oral History class at UMSL [University of Missouri-St. Louis]. Today is Monday, April 25th, 2022, and this interview is being conducted over Zoom. Can you please spell and state your name?

CR: Sure, so my full name is Clarissa Reel, I do go by Claire, and you can spell Claire as C-L-A-I-R-E.

TK: Thank you. This is a recorded interview, do you consent to being recorded?

CR: I do.

TK: Awesome. Let's dive in then. When and where were you born?

CR: I was born here in Missouri, 1993. May 26th, 1993, if you want to be super, like, technical.

TK: So how old are you then?

CR: I'm twenty-eight, I'll be twenty-nine this month.

TK: So you grew up in St. Louis. How do you define yourself in terms of 00:01:00sexuality and gender?

CR: I am a cis-woman and I am a lesbian.

TK: Have you connected with a spectrum of different identities over the course of your life?

CR: So like do I have multiple intersecting identities, that type of thing?

TK: Yeah, or, have you identified with different aspects of the LGBT spectrum before you became- before you realized you were lesbian?

CR: Yeah, as a teenager I was just bisexual, but then I just--I was going to say converted to lesbianism but that's not how that works [laughter]. No, I realized I was a lesbian as I got out of high school yeah, I haven't identified as anything else.

TK: Can you talk about the journey of finding your identity?

CR: It was just a very slow, it feels like forever ago. But--I had always liked 00:02:00girls, and I didn't realize they were crushes. I, I really don't, you know how some people say there was like a moment that they knew? I really didn't have that, I just knew that I felt attracted to girls over time. And as I got older I realized that was bisexuality, that that was queerness, and I really didn't know how to put that into words until I started getting made fun of it, and over time, the--the hardest part was coming out, the hardest part was--I was--the hardest part was reconciling with my faith with my sexuality and I think that contributed to making it a little harder for me to like, really wrap my mind 00:03:00around everything.

But, I came out in high school and I started just really getting into LGBT stuff and really getting into my identity in high school. So, it was a--even though it was still like, difficult, I was still able to come out and get comfortable in my identity.

TK: Did you have a support group in high school that made this process any easier?

CR: I did. So I was a [laughter] I was theater kid and I was surrounded by other kids who were also queer because we just tend to congregate around a theater. That's funny. But I was also a part of an organization here in St. Louis called Growing American Youth and they are a support group, a social group for young people, who are LGBT, along the LGBT spectrum, and they were with me all throughout, I'm going to say sophomore year of high school all the way through, 00:04:00like, my first couple years of college. They were--they're an organization that services young people who are queer, LG--trans, LGBT, young people, all twenty-one and under, and they were my lifeline throughout the whole, my whole young teenage years, so, yeah.

TK: How did you find that group?

CR: That's a very good question. So I, so my mother had signed me up for another diversity group cause she knew I was really into diversity and multiculturals and all that sorts of stuff. And so she signed me up for a summer program at WashU, I can't remember the name of that program, I don't think it exists there anymore. And so she signed me up for that program and one of the advisors was telling me about this LGBT youth prom at City Museum, and I was like 'what, that's a thing that exists?' [interruption] hi kitties, sorry I'm an animal lover [laughter].

And so, she was telling me about that, and so I went and I was surrounded by 00:05:00other LGBT young people. I didn't even think that was a thing. Because I was still growing up in a pretty Christian house. I still am a Christian, I still live in a Christian household. And so that's how I found out about the organization, going through their LGBT youth prom and they couldn't get rid of me after that [laughter].

TK: Are you still involved in that group in any way?

CR: Not at the moment, no, so as I stated before you can be one of the youths up until you turn twenty-one, or throughout your twenty first year. When you turn twenty-two, you're no longer allowed to be a part of the program. But, if I wanted to I could be an advisor, but I'm, I'm kind of doing something else right now. So, so no I'm not involved in the organization anymore, but yeah, I still 00:06:00have a lot of love and compassion for them and what they do.

TK: What are you involved in, right now then?

CR: Right now, at the moment I'm trying to find something to get involved in. COVID ruined a lot of my plans and I am trying to build li--I'm still trying to accept the fact that life is not what I wanted it to be, but I'm also trying to like rebuild life for myself and figure out what that looks like. Right now I'm looking for a job and looking to get active in the community. It's a little difficult because I cannot drive and I also do some caregiving. And so, it--so trying to figure out buses as well as making sure that things are safe at home is very difficult. So I'm trying to figure out what does, like, online activism look like from your home. Yeah. I would love to be involved in more. So [sighs] 00:07:00I'm just trying to be patient with myself and accept that I can't magically make things change the way I want them to be. Sorry, this is turning into like a weird therapy session [laughter].

TK: That's okay [laughter] you talked about looking for a job, are you looking for a job in queer activism, or activism in general?

CR: That would be wonderful, I, right now I'm looking for a job that's, that's going to fit my needs as someone who's a caregiver and as someone who does not drive. I would--but, but that's the--I'm looking for a job at the moment. But that's my, that's my ultimate goal, is to figure out my passion and be able to pursue back in whatever way that works, so pretty much yes.

TK: So you mentioned you didn't know at first--you said you liked girls but you 00:08:00didn't know at first that they were crushes, do you remember your first crush when you realized it was a crush?

CR: Oh my, I don't, I [pause] gosh I was so young, no. But I knew as a little child I always had these, these strong feelings for girls. They were just beyond, they were beyond 'I want to be her best friend,' you know? Yeah.

TK: Was there anyone in the media that you looked up to in that way?

CR: As I got older, yes. So there used to be a TV channel called Logo, I still think it exists. I don't know. And it was a channel dedicated to LGBT entertainment and LGBT people and I--that was phenomenal. It was the, it was the only channel that did that at the time. And so that was the first time I was exposed to lesbian comedians, lesbian movies, and so I really looked up to the 00:09:00women on there, especially a lot of the lesbian comedians. Karen Williams, Suzanne Westenhoefer, I'm trying to think of who else. Cat Davis, um, Bridget McManus, Vikki Shaw. A lot of these older women lesbian comedians. I also looked up to them because--oh Kate Clinton, I loved her--I looked up to them also because they were, that was the first time I had ever heard of lesbian activism. And these were women that were out back in the 70s and 80s, during the AIDS crisis when being LGBT was very illegal still. So I looked up to a lot of those women.

TK: What movies did you watch on there, do you remember any of them?

CR: Can you say that one more time? You glitched a little.

TK: Yeah, what movies did you watch on there? Did you, do you remember any of them?

CR: So, one of, let's see. One of the movies I watched was But I'm a Cheerleader, which is a classic LGBT film, young queer film. Let's see, another one, I [pause] I want to say, I think there was a mov--yes. There was another movie called The Incredibly, was it, oh god what is it. I want to say it was called The Incredibly True Story of Two Girls in Love. And it was really cute because it was a high school film, well it wasn't a high school film, I guess you could say a coming-of-age film surrounding these two young girls who had 00:11:00fallen in love with each other and for different reasons their families didn't what them to be together. One girl came from a really queer family, the other girl came from like this really, kind of, more conservative family. And it was like a, it was cute they got into a car chase kind of thing. I can't remember exactly but it was really cute.

Um, there was also a show on there called The Big Gay Sketch Sho--The Big Gay Sketch Show which was exactly that. It was a sketch show surrounding LGBT people, LGBT lives. It had multiple comedians on there, improvers, it was really funny. I can't remember a whole, whole lot because this was like years ago, but, yeah I watched that a lot [laughter]. I don't even know if the channel exists anymore, I haven't seen it in a while.

TK: Who have you shared your identity with?

CR: Honestly, everybody. I'm very out. I uh, I--I find it helpful just to be out, um I understand why a lot of people aren't, but that's part of the reason why I feel so comfortable, not necessarily comfortable but that's part of the reason I'm out so much, is because a lot of people cannot be. And especially with me being a Christian, I'm very out to Christians as well. We don't have a lot of time to go into like, queer theology and all that type of stuff, so I won't go into all that. But it's very important, especially in today's climate, that Christians--well, that people that tend to be a bit more conservative know that there is nothing to fear. So that's all I'll say on that for right now. Yeah.

TK: So you're a Christian. Do you identify with any sect of, sector of 00:13:00Christianity, or just Christianity as a whole?

CR: Okay, so I consider myself a progressive Christian, also a Christian feminist, they're pretty much the same thing but, yeah. And I, so technically, I was, you could say that I was baptized into the United Church of Christ, which is one of the more--which is one of the more progressive denominations in Christianity, but, for a lot of personal reasons, most of it having to do with just trying to navigate the Christian community and by getting continually frustrated with people not, in my opinion, wanting to do the work of Christ, and just, and just kind of not being interesting in falling into strict 00:14:00denominational rules. I kind of consider myself just like comfortable anywhere, Christian anywhere. My main thing is if you're affirming, if you're genuinely about doing the work of Christ I'm with you, but I am technically with the United Church of Christ denomination church.

TK: So your entire family is religious?

CR: Mmhmm.

TK: Did that make coming out to them difficult?

CR: It, it did, because I was afraid of their response. I'm not, also not out to, well I didn't, I didn't out myself, someone else did probably. But I'm, the only people that I need to really affirm me are my mother and father. Everyone else is just kind of like, if you like it, great. If you don't, great. Whatever. I'm not close to my, I'm not super close to a lot of my extended family. I'm not hostile toward them, they're, or hostile toward them, I'm just not close to them. So I really don't care. Yeah.

TK: Did you [interruption] find support from your parents? Sorry.

CR: No it's fine, I did. My dad just downright didn't care and my mom was affirming and tries to be a good ally, yeah.

TK: Do you think that your queer identity and coming out as a lesbian has strengthened your relationship in the church?

CR: It most definitely has. So I am a part of an LGBT Christian organization called the Queer Christian Fellowship and through them I have been able to grow my faith in a way to where I see this concept of God as much bigger, much wider, more loving, more diverse. God is no longer this overarching, you know, giant 00:16:00police eye in the sky, if that makes sense. God looks like a lot of different things, God feels like a lot of different things. And I--even on the days where I don't feel, where my faith is very stumbly, small, I still feel a level of love and comfort in the God that I serve now because of navigating the queer Christian community, and it's been phenomenal.

TK: Are you involved in any queer communities on campus, or are there any at UMSL?

CR: Yes, so there is an organization, it is called Prizm. And for a year I was president, but throughout my entire time at UMSL I was a part of Prizm. I, let's see. I participated in a lot of their events, I went to their meetings all the 00:17:00time. I'm not sure exactly what the group looks like now after COVID happened. I'm no longer the, I'm no longer the president. I'm not as active as I am--okay, words are hard [laughter]. I'm not as active as I was because I stay, I'm here at home now a lot. There is another wonderful individual that's leading up the program and they're doing a really good job. So, there's that. But yeah, there is an LGBT group on campus, it's called Prizm. Phenomenal group, I had a lot of fun with them and they also do a lot of important work on campus. I'm sorry for touching my nose, my allergies are not having it today.

TK: That's okay. What kinds of does that--does Prizm do on campus?

CR: So, not sure what they're doing now, but they, well they still have a lot of events. They recently had a painting night where you could come and free paint, 00:18:00do some creative stuff. Throughout the years Prizm has done, they have had speakers, they have done drag shows. We used to be known for our drag shows, and those were always very fun. They've done events for the Day of Silence, which is the day acknowledging those who may not be able to be out, or may have been killed, or have had some sort of harm done to them because they were queer or trans. They also used to do Trans Day of Remembrance on campus. So they're trying to do as much activism as possible. They also do a lot of collaborating with other groups. So, yeah. They were a force on campus [laughter].

TK: Do you feel that UMSL [interruption] is an inclusive campus? Sorry [laughter].

CR: You're fine, I think the cat made some really good points. So do I think UMSL is a safe place, is--

TK: Safe or inclusive.

CR: I think it is, the, so in my experience the community has, the UMSL community has not been hostile to us in any way. Anybody that doesn't like us doesn't have to interact with us. And most of the people, the staff, we have a lot of professors are supportive, people always ask about us, they are very kind to us. If somebody is homophobic on campus, that's usually dealt with very well. We have people we know we can go to. We know that our voices will be heard and taken seriously. Yeah, so I've never felt in danger on campus because of my LGBT identity.

TK: Can you talk about the people you know you can go to? Are they professors, 00:20:00are they people at Prizm?

CR: So it's a good mix. I wonder if they're going--so for one thing UMSL hired an LGBT coordinator, I want to say a couple years before COVID started. Also, I'm sorry for mentioning COVID so much. A lot of things centered around that. So a couple years before COVID started they hired an LGBT coordinator for the first time. That was the first time I had heard of that. He had to leave, unfortunately. Nothing bad happened, he had another opportunity someplace else. But he was always wonderful. We also had a lot of staff in the student aid, not student aid. Student life, university life, that would support us. There were professors that were supportive as well. There was a wonderful community. I'm trying to not name names, is what I'm trying to do [laughter]. There was a 00:21:00wonderful list of people we could go to. A lot of them were straight allies which made me feel very good. And then some of them were queer as well. It was a wonderful community there, it was very safe.

Tori: How did you find this community of people?

CR: Well, you know, transferring from Flo Valley, they have the student life day and all the clubs were out and I saw the Prizm table and I was like "my people!" and I signed up event--immediately [laughter] and started trying to do whatever I could with them.

TK: Where's Full Valley?

CR: So Flo Valley is, so for one thing that's a part of the St. Louis Community College system, and Flo Valley Campus is where I live here in North County. I loved my time at Flo Valley being in community college. There's a really good 00:22:00transfer system between UMSL and the community colleges. I'm going to argue that probably half of UMSL's students came from the community college system. I'll fight that one, yeah I'll fight for that one, yeah. So I, yeah the LGBT community there was a little bit smaller, it was a heavy commuter campus. Of course it is, it's a community college. It would be cool if they had dorms though. I probably would have stayed in them. But, yeah.

TK: UMSL is a big transfer college.

CR: Mmhmm.

TK: What are you studying right now?

CR: So I'm currently getting ready to graduate, yay! And finishing up a degree in, a Bachelor of Science degree in Sociology and I'm also getting a certificate in Gender Studies.

TK: [pause] Have you ever attended any Pride events in St. Louis?

CR: Yes, I have attended multiple. St. Louis has a really good LGBT community here, which is very surprising to me even though I've lived here for so long, because I--a piece of me still feels like the community is hidden. At the same time it's not. So I've gone to Pride, multiple Prides, and I've gone to, so I've gone to the Downtown Pride of course, and then when Tower Grove Pride started up I'd gone to that one. That's a little bit easier to, I tend to go to that one a little bit more now. As opposed to the downtown one because it's a lot more shade, a lot more places to sleep in the grass [laughter]. As opposed to 00:24:00concrete, but yeah. When I'm, if it's something I'm sure I have the ability to ride the bus to, or if I know I'll have good transportation, I'm pretty much willing to go there, yeah. I've been to numerous LGBT centered events, Pride events, that kind of thing.

TK: What do those experiences look like? Do you any specific memories?

CR: What do those experiences look like. So a lot of the ones I've gone to were, it just feels very small in a good way. And when I say small, I mean it's, a lot of the events that I've gone to are smaller events that are easy to meet people. It's easy to find friends, people are easy to talk to. It's a big small 00:25:00community. It's small in that you're going to run into a lot of the same people. But at the same time it's big in that you're always going to meet someone new, and find out you connect to someone else through someone else. And so, it's just very comforting. I wish I were able to kind of get out more, and mix around people a bit more because I probably would be more involved with all those people. But it's, I've made a lot of friends here, and it's funny because my friends know other friends, like I'm three degrees away from someone and I still know someone that they know, that type of thing. Yeah, if that answers the question.

TK: Yeah, so you have lasting friendships from going to Pride?

CR: Mmhmm. And from navigating being a part of Growing American Youth. So as I said before you can be there for almost your entire teenage-hood existence, they 00:26:00take anyone under the age of twenty-one. So I was in this organization even as a young adult. When I turned eighteen to twenty-two, well eighteen to twenty-one, but yeah so I made lasting friendships through that and as they get, and as people leave the organization and get more active in the community then that's more connections that I have with other people as well. So I've been involved in the community since I was a young highschooler, what fifteen years old, fourteen, fifteen.

TK: So in Growing American Youth, did, were there meetings?

CR: Mmhmm.

TK: ( ) at a community center?

CR: So there were weekly meetings. There were two locations, there was one in the Central West End, that's the one that was closest to me, that I was able to get to. And then they had another group in St. Charles that met on Tuesday 00:27:00nights. I'm trying to remember. Yeah, they had another group that met in St. Charles on Tuesday. That's right. So, but on Thursday nights is when we would meet over at the Central West End, we met at Trinity Episcopal Church. A wonderful affirming church, that was the first time I had ever heard of an affirming church, and which made all the difference for me as a young Christian child.

And, we would meet there Thursday nights. Nights looked like, so a lot of nights we were sitting in discussion groups, were sitting in like a big circle. Discussing whatever. Sometimes it was relevant to the LGBT community, sometimes it wasn't, but it didn't matter. It was more about letting young people know that there is community and there is adults that support them. I did a number of events with them, through them. We did fundraisers, we did a talent show, we've 00:28:00done, I'm trying to think of things we did. We would have speakers come in. We even used to do comprehensive sex education that was queer friendly and age appropriate for children, for young teenagers. It exposed me to a whole lot. It was wonderful.

TK: Was it a Christian group or did it just happen to be in a church?

CR: It just happened to be in a church. It was definitely not a Christian group. And it was funny, it was kind of a joke. Not a joke, but it kind of was. It was kind of a thing in the group where, if a child had a family that was un-affirming, a lot of the times if it was from a Christian family, if a child had a family member that was not affirming or their parents were not affirming they didn't have to say they were going to an LGBT youth group. They could say, 00:29:00"oh, no I'm going to a youth group at church." And we were like, "oh, that's a phenomenal cover." [laughter]. So the parent wouldn't be upset and the child would still get the support. It wasn't meant to be in a way that was like, secretive, you know what I mean? It was genuinely just like a thing among us. That, this is like a wonderful way for young people to feel safe as well as not have family that is concerning or trying to block them from getting the support that they need. Yeah.

TK: Can you tell me more about how it being in a church, in the Episcopal Church, helped you on your journey in your identity in religion?

CR: Oh no no, so Growing American Youth on Thursday nights met at an Episcopal church.

TK: Yeah, how--

CR: I'm a part of ( )

TK: ( ) sorry.

CR: I'm sorry.

TK: That's my fault, how, can you tell me about the Episcopal Church? How it's, 00:30:00what did you say [pause] how did you describe it?

CR: The church that we met at?

TK: The Episcopal Church.

CR: Oh, yeah. So again, not trying to name names, because I don't want to get--but, the pastors were always very nice, the community was very nice. We really didn't do a whole lot with the church, per say. They, they just kind of let us use their space. We interacted with the church a few, a little bit with the church and the congregation. I distinctly remember us having a, I want to say it was a pancake breakfast fundraiser that helped the group out. That helped out Growing American Youth. But for the most part we really didn't do anything with the church because like I said it wasn't a religious group. They just let us use their fellowship hall, and they were always very friendly. We've never 00:31:00had any, as far as I know we've never had any or got any sort of malice from the church members or any sort of hurt from the church members. No sort of homophobia from the church to us. Which of course I would expect, this is an open and affirming church.

TK: Can you--

CR: ( ) oh yeah--

TK: That's what I--can you talk about the Episcopal Church being an open and affirming church, was influential to you?

CR: It made me, that was the first time I had ever, so I didn't start getting in, I didn't get--okay, words are hard. [laughter] I did not start getting into queer theology until much later, and so thinking back that was the first time I had ever been exposed to affirming theology. This idea that God loves LGBT people, and that set up the pathway to my theology now of not only God loving 00:32:00LGBT people but God creating LGBT people, they don't need to be fixed. Seeing LGBT people as valid, getting into queer theology, which I'm still learning about. So that--and it's funny, I wasn't even thinking much about church. But looking back, it really was influential on me. It helped me get ready for what was coming in the future that I did not realize. I hope I'm answering your question [laughter]. Okay good.

TK: Yeah.

CR: So it was setting me up for something I didn't even realize was coming down the line. And I'm so grateful it did, because think if I had any sort of hostility from any of the churches, any church, I don't know if I would be here. Yeah.

TK: What was coming down the line, that you referred to?

CR: So when I say that I mean that now I'm really into queer theology and trying to understand my faith, and really looking at my faith from the perspective of someone who's got multiple intersecting identities. So, I'm also Black, I am a woman, I am a neurodivergent person, I am someone who is queer. And so, seeing someone who has a different view of God and has slightly, has progressive theology, as a young person showed me that you can think about theology and religion and Christianity in a lot of different ways. So those experiences with Trinity Episcopal, those few experiences I had, were, even though I did not interact with the church as much, gave me a little bit of a basis saying in the 00:34:00back of my mind, you know, your faith can look different. And that's okay. You know, you don't have to follow and agree with everything in the church that you're in at the moment and that's perfectly valid. And there's nothing wrong with that. So yeah.

TK: Can you, is that what queer theology is? Or can you talk about queer theology a little bit?

CR: So I'm still kind of getting into it, but queer theology, to completely just water everything down, is ultimately exactly what it sounds like. So it's theology coming from a queer and trans perspective, looking at God and trying to navigate queer sexuality, looking at, going deeper and delving into the Bible. I'm still learning about it, so I don't want to try to spout off stuff that I'm 00:35:00still not one hundred percent sure of. But it's ultimately this concept of, it falls under I'm going to argue liberation theology about ( ) oppressed people, seeing God through the lens of oppressed minorities. That type of thing. Yeah. I hope that means something [laughter].

TK: Yeah, thank you. [pause] Okay, let's talk a little bit more about the queer community in St. Louis.

CR: Mmhmm.

TK: What is your opinion on the inclusivity of St. Louis?

CR: So the inclusive, okay so I feel like St. Louis in general, from someone who is queer and looking at St. Louis, St. Louis is very white, St. Louis is very 00:36:00heterosexual, St. Louis is very cisgender. St. Louis is a lot of things that could be, that are not affirming. From the perspective of someone who's got multiple intersecting identities, a lot of legislation here could be a lot better, to say the very least. [pause] It's just, it's just very frustrating. You're, as a, not someone who's a queer person but also as someone who's low income, as someone who's black, as someone who lives in a part of the city that's very stigmatized. I live in North County, I live kind of North. And North St. Louis in general tends to get a lot of hate directed at it, a lot of stigma 00:37:00around us, and it's just very frustrating being here. Yeah, I have a lot of people who are nice but don't understand that they are also being hateful. It's just very frustrating, yeah, I would like to see more people like me in power. Who look like me, who have my, you know, have some of my identities in power. And I think that would change the city for the better, because I see a lot of people who have my identities who are struggling so much. I'm struggling so much. And it's just exhausting. So, St. Louis could be a lot more inclusive, yeah.

TK: What kinds of stigmas are there around North County?

CR: So, North County and North St. Louis. North St. Louis City. A lot of shooting, which is to some extent true. It's all, so, it's very dangerous, 00:38:00every, there's just a lot of crime here. But as is any area that is high Black and low income, this is not just a St. Louis thing. Lots of low income, Black urban areas get that stigma. And I'm not, I don't have time to go into everything but white people who are not from this area and who are not interested in understanding the history of this area don't understand that there's a lot of history and a lot of legislation and a lot of societal and cultural stuff that came into this area becoming what it is. A lot of racism that came into that. And it's just aggravating. I honestly do feel that's why 00:39:00there aren't as many, there are resources over here I don't want to say there aren't, but I feel like that's why there's not as much, it's kind of hard to say. But our area does not have as much as other areas do. There's not as much desire to invest in our area as there are other places. And other places are encouraged to not do business with us over here, north in St. Louis. And that's in St. Louis County or North St. Louis City. But I do feel like that there is a desire for change, very slow, very small, but still a desire for change. People are fighting. And that's not necessarily a queer thing, that's just a North County thing. We're fighting. We've got to fight it, we've got no choice but to. So yeah.

TK: You talked about legislation a little bit. Do you have any specific examples?

CR: Not at the current moment.

TK: That's okay [laughter].

CR: ( )

TK: ( )

CR: My allergies are driving me up the wall.

TK: [laughter] Do your intersecting identities every make you feel unsafe in St. Louis because of the crime rates at all?

CR: So, for one thing, I'm always just cautious of crime everywhere. My--one of things that I learned studying sociology is that we will point out obvious crime, because we pay attention to that more. Especially when it comes from an already stigmatized minority, but crime looks like a lot of different things. And some areas have privilege, and they are able to get their crime not talked 00:41:00about as much. So, I don't feel safe, so especially as a woman. I don't feel safe anywhere [laughter] well not like, I'm always looking around my shoulder, but I kind of am. You know? I'm not completely afraid to leave, I'm not afraid to leave my house, but I'm always just very cognizant of where I am. Just at night, it doesn't matter if I'm in North St. Louis or if I'm in Ladue or if I'm in St. Charles. It doesn't matter. The identity that I'm always the most cognizant of is the fact that I am a woman. And I just am always very cautious, 00:42:00yeah. So, I'm slightly nervous. So I don't drive, so I have to rely on public transportation, and I'm looking for jobs, but even then, I'm always cognizant of, if I have to work late, is this a space I feel comfortable outside waiting at the bus stop in? And so I have to turn down lot of jobs for that, because I just don't at night. I'm just very cautious, I'm nervous everywhere [laughter].

TK: Is there a reason you don't drive?

CR: I have a lot of anxiety and I have ADHD. It, those do not mix well for driving [laughter]. I have a really big desire to drive, I would love to, but I 00:43:00have a lot of trouble focusing. I do tend to zone out quite a bit. I have had a license, like a learner's, a driver's license, I was doing that for a minute. But I would like to go through a driving school, but I have ADHD and anxiety, I am not medicated for personal reasons. Not religious reasons or anything, I was on ADHD medication and it did some kind of weird stuff to me. I didn't like it. So I just, so my neurodivergent issues kind of make it difficult I feel like. And I have a lot of anxiety around driving, so I just, its just--eventually I will. My goal is to learn how to drive before I turn 30. But I just, I'm not rushing it. Because that's not the type of thing you rush. Especially out here, especially on St. Louis streets where people do, they do enough to get their 00:44:00driver's license, and then they do whatever the hell they want. When they [laughter] when they get it. So, yeah, it's coming, just slowly.

TK: Has your racial identity affected your experience as a queer person, your experience towards queerness growing up?

CR: So, a lot of the kind of sort of, I so feel like a lot of the queer things that I have seen or had most access to were very white, coming from white people. I did see a few things sporadically from people of color, but a lot of the queer community has a lot of whiteness to it. So I tend to, which was, I guess fine for me growing up because I wasn't, I didn't know a whole lot about 00:45:00intersectionality. That was something I learned as I got older. It was fine because I was new to the community and just looking for, where is queer, you know? Where is it? But as I got older, I wanted to see more of myself in my entertainment, in my activism, in my everything. I wanted to see more people of color. I wanted to see more all of it.

And so luckily now I think we're at a time, even in just society where we're understanding that so much stuff has been whitewashed and a lot of the things coming from people of color have been covered up, they weren't given the same sort of investment. And I think now it's wonderful that there is so many different, there is a desire to see queerness look different, and what does that look like for different people. Whether you're disabled, whether you're a person of color, whether you're an immigrant, whether you're a different religion, you know? So I think over time that has changed quite a bit and I love that. I can 00:46:00easily find things for people of color that are queer as well.

TK: Yeah, can you describe any specific changes or things you can find now?

CR: Yeah, so for one thing, excuse me, I'm seeing a lot more movies that were centered around the queer experience for people of color. And finding books written by people of color that are queer is good. As someone who is a Christian, finding black theology that centers queerness is slightly difficult, but at the same time I've also found some. I'm speaking on the Black experience, let me say that, especially. I cannot speak for all racial groups. But as a Black person I can say I've found some things.

I will say that, that is one thing that, even outside of being queer, our nation needs to do better. Not focus on just the relationship between black and white 00:47:00people, I would like to see other groups get their, I don't want to say time in the light, but I would like to see diversity among other groups. Same thing for Christianity. We focus on the Christian and the non-Christian, the Christian and the non-religious and I would like to see, you know, this is queer Islam, this is queer Judaism, this is queer Buddhism. I would like to see queerness in all the ways. Give me all the queer [laughter]. And have that be represented, and have other groups be, you know. I'm just about diversity and inclusion so I just like it in as many ways as possible, yeah.

TK: Where do you go to find Black theology?

CR: Oh you can go a number of places. So there's a website called Queer Theology and it's exactly what it sounds like. Their whole website is focused on 00:48:00queerness as it relates to Christianity. So they have a whole list of resources there and written by Black authors. Stuff written by authors of color. I'm going to take the biggest allergy pill after this is over. Also, through Queer Christian Fellowship, they have resources where you can go. And these places also have podcasts, they have YouTube videos, different programs, things you can read and such. So they have all sorts of things, not just books. Excuse me. So you can also, I'm trying to, where have I found, I found a lot of stuff online. You just, it's, you kind of sort of have to search for it. But once you find one, you tend to find all of them.

The United Church of Christ, they, do they have, they have affirming literature in general. And I want to say they do have things written by people of color, I think they do, as it relates to queerness. I want to say yes, I got to look again. Affirming places, definitely, LGBT places.

TK: Did you start finding all of these places, websites on your own, did you have a role model that helped you along the way?

CR: I found them on my own, just getting curious, searching for things. Clicking on links, just being like, you know, gay and Christian, or Black, gay, and Christian [laughter] through Google, through Bing, through all of it. And I just took my time to look it up and find it. I have quite a library collection. I need to get rid of a lot of books, I will not, and I will continue to get more 00:50:00[laughter]. Yeah.

TK: When did you start looking for these resources?

CR: As I got older, and as I started getting into my faith seriously, I started just trying to look as much as possible. So I'll say ten years ago, twelve years ago if I have to put an actual timeline on it. But I just mentally ( ) screen, control alt delete, okay. But yeah. So this was over a decade ago I started looking. And of course it was small then, but as time goes on and as progressive theology has gotten more and more popular, more people are desiring, more people are going through their deconstruction process, there's more literature, more 00:51:00podcasts, more being written by all sorts of people. So it's wonderful.

TK: We talked a little bit about changes in resources as far as intersectionality, different identities. Have you noticed any particularly in St. Louis?

CR: Can you repeat the question one more time?

TK: Yeah. We talked a little bit about how, when you were younger you noticed most resources for the queer community were white based and how they're kind of changing now. Have you noticed any of those changes specifically in St. Louis?

CR: I feel like the community is trying to become as inclusive as possible. A 00:52:00lot of leaders in the community, in the St. Louis LGBT community are still white, but there is a bigger desire for inclusion for people of color, for disabled folks, people are willing to call each other out more on any sort of -ism or -obia they may show. As it relates to really anything, especially race. And so, we are trying to lift up more, I see more people of color being lifted up in the community. I see more, I see a lot of white allies trying to decenter themselves and white experiences. I also see a bigger desire for mutual aid. Especially when it comes to helping out people of color in need. And I think 00:53:00that's really wonderful, that's been happening over the years. A lot of my friends are better activists than me, and so I watch the work that they do and they do it tirelessly. And even in just the past few years it's been phenomenal the changes they've made, and I am so proud of them. Because they're setting up the future so that young people wont have to struggle as much. And that's the goal, right? That's the goal. And they're even doing wonders with, I'm even seeing more straight allies. Which is great as well. So I hope that answers the question. Okay good.

TK: Yeah, what is some of the work that they do, specifically?

CL: Oh god, there's a lot. Excuse me. So, some of the work that they do. It 00:54:00could be anything. It could be, some of them work in places where they're teaching diversity. Some of them are just trying to do mutual aid, some of them are just raising inclusive children. A lot of them are having conversations with their own folks. Some of them are a part of organizations that are geared toward helping those in need in general, and making sure they're inclusive of LGBT people in general. They're doing a lot. It's kind of hard to pinpoint every little thing, but there is a lot going on.

TK: Can you tell me a little bit about mutual aid?

CR: ( ) So when I think of mutual aid, I think of people coming together in a community trying to help one another. And so, I think especially throughout the pandemic, the St. Louis LGBT community, there was a lot of you know, who needs food, who needs resources, who needs transportation because they are not able to get out. Who needs, basically, everything instead of relying on the powers that be over us, we kind of came in and tried to, well they tried to come in and help 00:56:00each other in whatever way. It felt like there was a lot of looking at who had the ability to do what, and whatever your ability was, that's what you use to help other people. So for the people, at the time the vaccine was not out, people needed food but they were not able to travel, because we didn't, you know.

We didn't know what was going on, who was going to get sick or not. So for the people who were able travel and drive, there was a lot of dropping off food, and that type of thing. That's one of the things I distinctly remember. They dropped food off for people. There was also a point in the pandemic where, it was through an organization called Lot's Wife. Again, not trying to name names. But they set up a thing where LGBT community members would call and do check-ins on one another to see how they were doing, and just so they had someone to talk to. 00:57:00And that was important. Yeah, does that answer your question? Okay good.

TK: Yeah, what was the organization called?

CR: It was called Lot's Wife.

TK: Locked Wife?

CR: Lot's Wife, L-O-T-S.

TK: Oh, thank you.

CR: And it was [interruption] oh sorry.

Tori: No, you go.

CR: Oh, so the name is coming from a story in the Bible around, I know this story. Around, you know we don't have time to get into that [laughter] the organization--

TK: We totally do if you want to get into that. I'm interested in the name.

CR: No problem. I would have to look it up, so I don't miss any details, but ultimately the story is around a man named Lot. They were having to escape--I 00:58:00know this story, why am I blanking so much on it? I got five hours of sleep, that's why. We don't have to go into it. But the organization is called Lot's Wife. L-O-T-S Wife. Yeah. [Laughter] that was awkward.

TK: [Laughter] that's okay. Do you have any, have you participated in mutual aid or received any help from mutual aid before?

CR: I have not. At the beginning of the pandemic, I tried to, so I tried to be one of the people that would call around and check on people, but my mental health deteriorated after that, and I was not as helpful as I wanted to be. And then I also was trying to finish up school and what not. So a lot of the weight of that just came on me really quickly. So I was not as helpful as I could've been. I personally have not been on the receiving end of mutual aid, but I would 00:59:00like to be on the giving end, yeah, at some point. It's all coming, it's all coming [laughter]. I'm trying to teach myself to be patient with myself and not get mad at the fact that I cannot be as helpful as I want. Yeah.

TK: We've talked about the pandemic a little bit. What are some of the impacts you've noticed on the queer community as a result of the pandemic?

CR: As a result--[pause] I'm trying to think. I know some people lost their job, and thus the reason for more mutual aid. I know that a lot of people were at 01:00:00home more. A lot of people were at home more, and so lot of their in-person resources for LGBT people were harder to get to. And especially when you talk about people who are living with un-affirming families. That was one of the things that I distinctly remember. A lot of children would get out and be able to go to school, and be able to be with their GSAs, and the pandemic, when schools were closed, they were not able to do that.

And so they, that was one of the fears that young people were going to be, have to go back in the closet, or have to be with family that was abusive and not accepting to them. And I know that was really a concern in the community. And 01:01:00not just with children but with people in general having to move back with family because maybe they couldn't figure that out. But yeah, that's one thing. That wasn't specific to St. Louis, but I know that was one of the concerns that was shared throughout the LGBT community here, yeah.

TK: Did the pandemic have any effects on you specifically and your relationship with the queer community?

CR: Yeah, so I was not able to, as in person events kind of ended, I was not able to go. I was not able to go, of course, there was not anything to go to. So, a lot of the things that I wanted to do were either online or they just did not happen. For me, it's kind of weird. I kind of found a lot of community 01:02:00online, so I'm not going to say the pandemic was helpful ( ) wasn't helpful, but I was able to access spaces that I would not have been able to access before. So as more organizations in other cities, in other states, in other countries put things online, I was able to attend those. And so, my community finally extended beyond St. Louis.

For example, one New Year, this past New Year's, I was, not this past, last New Year, so New Year going into 2021. I had, I was looking for online events to go to that were queer friendly and I found a group in New York, Uptown Collective, Queer Uptown Collective and I like to say I celebrated New Year's in New York with my friends. And they were a weekly, no they were a monthly LGBT group that 01:03:00would meet up and hang out and chat online. And they were all in New York, and I was able to join in from Missouri, and so we were able to have community in that way. And so, I rang in the 2021 New Year with them.

And then with the Queer Christian Fellowship, they have a conference every year, every January. And a lot of times I'm not able to go because I just don't have the funds. It's a very expensive conference. But, throughout the pandemic, they have been having it online. And that significantly reduced the cost. So I was able to go these past two years because it was online and I was also able to make better community because everyone was online. We were in these online Zoom groups together, we could meet each other, connect information. As opposed to being in person where you may, maybe meet up with one person or two. So in a 01:04:00way, the pandemic has made my LGBT community a little bit bigger.

TK: Are you still in contact with your friends from New York?

CR: Just a small handful of them. As things have got kind of open again, a lot of the groups that were local to their city or state either went back in person, a lot of them went back in person, or there was just no longer a constant need for being online. The Uptown Queer Collective, that's what it was called. They were one of the ones that went back in person, excuse me. There is another one that I am friends with, that I'm in communication with, and they meet up every week. And they are still doing a lot of Zooms. So, yeah, but it's not depressing, it's good in a way, right? Because that's, it's not the end of the 01:05:00pandemic but it's, for the people who are in those places that need the in person, they're seeing it again. So I'm not upset about it, yeah.

TK: How did you find that group?

CR: through Facebook events, through Eventbrite, you just kind of take your time and see what's out there. Search for "queer" on Eventbrite, see what pops up. See what's happening in St. Louis, see what pops up, you know. And if it's a Zoom, I try to make it and I write it in my little calendar. That's one of the ways that I sustain my mental health throughout the pandemic, and even just beyond the pandemic. As someone who's doesn't leave their home as much, and as someone who's not working, so I don't have a lot of point to go places, online 01:06:00events are one of the ways that I am trying to maintain my mental health. Because somedays it gets really hard. Because I'm in the same spot a lot. So they help [laughter].

TK: Do you still, then, participate in online events?

CR: Most definitely. Every week I am in some sort of online event. I am in multiple. I, and it's funny because I am somewhat of a social introvert. So I have a lot of anxiety, as--I have anxiety, some of it social, and if feels really nice to be able to have my camera off but still talk and still be respected and seen as a still valid human being. Yeah, so I do a lot of Zoom events. Yeah, I would like to host some at some point [laughter]. But yeah, I'm 01:07:00doing something online every week, I'm talking to someone every week. So in a way I'm kind out of out my house all the time, which is how I would like to be in general. I would like to get out and do things [laughter].

TK: Do you then participate in a lot of online activism, would you say?

CR: Kind of, sort of. I try to share things, I try to talk about things, get discussion about things. If people engage, great. If they don't, it's okay. I'm trying to get better at doing that. So I try, there's so much. I'm on TikTok a lot, I'm on social media a lot. And so that's where I see a lot of things that the news media is not picking up, so that's where I try to share things about 01:08:00things here and there about different causes happening. I try to ask a lot of questions and just, at the very least I try to be aware of what's going on around me. And I try to check my own blind spots. Do a lot of self-educating, which is the bare minimum. I would like to do more, but yeah.

TK: [Recording interruption] You said you like to get out of the house, or try to get out. Do you go to any queer places in St. Louis?

CR: So, I like the Pride Center, I forget exactly where it's located. I want to say it's close to Chouteau. It's on Chouteau. But the Pride Center is a place I like going to. There really aren't, there are gay clubs, but I'm looking more, MoKaBe's is a place that's kind of queer centered, it is queer centered. We 01:09:00really don't have a lot of queer places outside of clubs and bars and the LGBT center. I just try to go where I can find community and a lot of the time that's events they might be hosting. There was going to be a MTUG, which is Metro Trans Umbrella Group, they were going to hold, and they did this the year, a couple years before COVID as well. It was a queer and trans dance, a fundraiser as well but also a social event. Unfortunately, they were going to try to hold that during the pandemic when things were kind of slowing down, but things kind of picked back up again. So they had to cancel it. So, hope they do it again, maybe they'll do it this year, I don't know. We'll see. But, if it's something I think I can make, I'll try to go to it, and I just to be out as much as possible. Yeah.

TK: And so do you take public transportation to get there, or do you go with friends that pick you up?

CR: If it's something that's going to be happening in the daytime, I don't mind taking public transportation, if it's something that's happening at night, I have to make sure I have a ride home. Like a ride, I don't, like Uber or something. I really don't want to be on public transportation late at night. And if it is, I just don't go, unless my mother can pick me--I live with my family. And right now, my mother's the only person that can drive. If she can pick me up that's great. If it's something I can go with friends to, I try to do that, but yeah.

TK: What--have you been to any events recently in the area?

CR: Nothing in person. There hasn't really been anything going on at the moment in person. Yet. Now, May, June, there's probably going to be some in person stuff because that's going to be Pride month. So, May, June. June, I mean June. So there's going to be a few in person things. I'm going to go to Tower Grove Pride. I'm trying, first of all it depends on the weather. Because if it's over one hundred degrees, I'm not going anywhere, but, unless it's indoors, but I'm going to try to make Tower Grove Pride, at the very least, it's pretty easy for me to get to. And if there was some indoor things, I'm going to look for it [laughter] try to go, yeah.

TK: You mentioned MoKaBe's. That's a coffee shop, right?

CR: Yeah. So MoKaBe's is a copy shop--copy? No it's not. It's a coffee shop. It 01:12:00is located right in Grand, going down Grand. They have been the spot for the queer community for as long as I can remember. Very inclusive, very activist, excuse me. Very inclusive, very supportive of Black Lives Matter, Trans Lives Matter. All of the social movements that are progressive they are supportive of. And so the queer community tends to center there, tends to gather there quite a bit. There's also Shameless Grounds. I have not been to that one, but I know of that one because it's so popular within the community, yeah.

[On screen interruption] I love your cat so much. I know that--I'm trying to stay focused but I just--this is a little tidbit. That's been one of my favorite parts of the pandemic, is that, I live with a family that does not like animals, so I have no pets. Which breaks my heart tremendously. So I get a chance to be 01:13:00on Zoom with people and every now and then you'll see a little kitty cat booty, or hear a dog bark or see a dog jump in someone's lap or their bird. That's been my favorite part of the pandemic, watching people's pets, watching the hilarity ensue of people trying to get someone's cat out of the camera. [laughter] Or something, so don't ever apologize for that. If your cat--if I see a cat face right now, that is going to be the best part of my day. [laughter].

TK: [laughter] It definitely makes professionalism a little less--

CR: Stressful, yeah. [Pause] I'm enjoying this interview, by the way.

TK: On mute, thank you [laughter], me too. Do you have anything else to add about St. Louis in particular, being in St. Louis in the queer community?

CR: You know I feel like there's a lot of hope here. A lot of people tend to leave St. Louis. It's a thing where a lot of people tend to leave St. Louis because they think it's perfect the way it is, or a lot of people tend to leave because they're just not satisfied. But there's also a community of people here that are staying here in St. Louis because they see that there is hope here. They see that there is a chance to develop something good here. I am one of those people. A lot of people stay here. And so I would like to get out of St. Louis but not permanently. [Laughter] I would like to [on screen interruption] take your time, take your time.

I want to leave something good here. I want to do something good here before I even consider leaving permanently. Because there is hope here. I see a lot of 01:15:00chance for growth. And in general in society I see a desire for better. It's frustr--it's really encouraging to see that a lot of people are fed up eith the systems that be. With the systems that are over us. What system is that? Whatever it is, you name it. And a lot of people are fed up and they all want better in some way, shape, or form. I see that in St. Louis as well. And so I just, I'm proud to be here. I'm proud to be a St. Louis--a St. Louisian? Is that what we are? I don't know, I'm from here. St. Lunatic. Nelly would be proud. But yeah, I love my city. I love the community here. And we're all just trying to fight for better, and I want to be a better part of that fight. So, in whatever way that looks like. Whether it's online or offline, in person or away, but 01:16:00yeah, my heart is here.

TK: What is your vision for St. Louis?

CR: You know my vision is for one thing, I would like to see more people of color elected into politics. That's not necessarily a vision, that's a desire. Well, I mean it's the same concept. I would like to see more people of color elected into office. I really liked seeing Tishaura, love her or hate her. I liked seeing, I did not know that was a possibility that a Black woman could be in such a position of power here. In St. Louis City. I would, my vision is just more people acknowledge the fact that there are things that are purposely dividing us structurally. And we as a city try to tear that down so that we can make it better for everybody, whether you're Northside, Southside, immigrant, or 01:17:00not. And that we realize our city is so much better when we're together. Yeah. Mic drop. [Laughter]

TK: [Pause] I want to ask a few more questions about your religion, just because I know it's a big part of your life. How did you find the queer Christian community?

CR: I--that is a good question. So I, this has been years ago. I was searching, 01:18:00I think it was another day where I'm on Google and I was trying to figure myself out, right? As you do, as a young person with access to the internet. And so I think, I don't know how I found it but I found this organization called the Gay Christian Network, and that was such a bizarre thing because I just did not, this concept of LGBT people being accepted by God is still extremely foreign to the Christian community. Excuse me. It's just not a legitimate thing for a lot of people in the Christian community. And so to see a whole organization dedicated to just advancing that and supporting that was wild to me. And I can't remember exactly how I found it, I guess I just Google searched it.

And so I signed up for them and I found out they have this conference every year and I was determined to go, excuse me, oh no. Excuse me. And so I, luckily I had 01:19:00a little money left over from my student grant and my mother helped me pay, I think, for my ticket, for my train ticket. It was in Chicago. So I took the train there, which is like twenty five dollars. We need to be taking some train trips [laughter]. And so I went that way, and that was the first time I had ever been around LGBT Christians, been around people who were talking about such a thing. And I fell in love with the organization and that kicked off my desire to get into queer theology. And that really set that off, and so now, and that was back in 2012, 2012 or 2014, one of the two. And so, but almost a decade ago, right? So over the years there has been more grown from, there have been more 01:20:00talks around deconstruction, around purity culture, around toxic theology. All this stuff has come out recently in years, along with MeToo there was ChurchToo, and so all of that has contributed to this concept of deconstruction of traditional Christianity.

And it's been wonderful to watch the theology that's developed from those. From all of these experiences from queer people, from Black--from people of color, from women. The wealth of knowledge towards progressive Christian theology as grown tremendously, and so watching that happen has been phenomenal and it's really helpful and is doing a lot of lifesaving work. Yeah, I know I kind of got 01:21:00away from your question but yeah.

TK: Can you tell me a little bit about the conference that you went to?

CR: Yeah, so the very first one I was, there were not a lot of Black people there, I will say that at the beginning. The organization has along with changed names, they now go by the Queer Christian Fellowship. There has been a much bigger push for diversity and inclusion, especially around people of color and disabled individuals. So, but the first time it was called the Gay Christian Network, and this conference was held in Chicago. It was, there was worship every morning and then there was a speaker every morning, and then there were sessions, so it was a conference, it was exactly a Christian conference. Except the Christians there were LGBT. It was a lot of community stuff, it was a lot of 01:22:00making, getting people, along with allowing people to have community, getting to know one another, there was also a lot of Bible teaching. A lot of Christian education. But it was also a lot surrounding LGBT inclusion, progressive sexuality. A lot of stuff like that and a lot of stuff that I had just never heard of before, and I was like, "this is amazing" and it all just made so much sense and it was all biblically based. A lot of people like to say that progressive theology is not biblically based and that's not true. It all was. A lot of these people were biblical scholars, there were seminaries that were open and affirming, and I had never heard of such a concept. Now there's a whole lot of seminaries that are open and affirming, it was wonderful.

And a lot of this just, so much lifesaving work. I can't, I know I've said that multiple times but it really was. Yeah, and it was wonderful to hear stories from people who, a lot of them struggled like I did. And when you're a queer Christian, growing up in a place that's very conservative, you have this tendency to think that you're all alone and you're by yourself because you don't see yourself represented in your theology or your society but it was wonderful to hear people talk about that. You're not alone. That was one of the big parts of the conference, one of the big parts of it. Yeah.

TK: Can you tell me a little bit about your struggle in the church?

CR: Yes, so we're going to also walk and talk because I need water. So I was raised in a pretty conservative, not politically conservative, but just, I don't 01:24:00know whatever you think a conservative Christian might be. A nondenominational Black church, and so the thing about the Black church is that you do not go, and I'm sure this is the case with churches that are predominantly white as well, but especially in the Black community. Black theology is what sustained us when we were slaves, throughout civil rights. Our theology, our connection to God is what saved us. And so, to question theology when you're in a Black church is to ultimately go up against, is the precession that you are going up against the Black community. Because you're going against the very thing that saved you. So, a lot of question, a lot of frustration is not allowed, because why would you be 01:25:00against the thing that saved our people and got us even to where we are, you know what I mean?

And so, I--when I was having a lot of doubts and questions and hearing all these homophobic messages in the pulpit, I did not feel comfortable asking questions and just had to kind of take it in. But I also felt like, you know you're telling me about this God that loves us and sees as valuable, but you're telling me that certain people are not lovable and valuable. It doesn't make any sense. And so I never, I personally just, you know I struggled with that because I was told that God, I don't know. You're telling me I'm not worthy unless I look a 01:26:00certain way and behave a certain way, but God loves me? It's a conflicting message, you can't do that. And so, I just remember praying constantly, like, "God, make me the way you want me to be. Make me the person you want me to be. Change me in the way that you are fit." And, I'm still gay! [Laughter] so I, my struggle was more so internally because I never agreed with this concept of God being a homophobic God. That's not what I was being taught, that's not what I believe. So for you to tell me something like that, it just really messed with me.

Now I am no longer at that church. I left that church when I was seventeen. And went on what I call a lonely walk with God, which is basically where I still 01:27:00considered myself a Christian, but I did not do any Christian activities. I was just allowing myself to heal after the trauma. I did not read the Bible, I sure as shit did not listen to any televangelists. I still don't, they're a mess, they're all a mess. I just kind of took some time, just me and my prayers. But then I felt called, moved, you could say moved but I felt called to go back to church, to find a church that was open and affirming. All this was going on while I was, this--and it was funny, I started going to Growing American Youth while I was in this church, so Growing American Youth was a saving grace for me throughout that time. So, am I answering your question well? Okay, good. So I just, I was just so happy to leave. I had already accepted that they were wrong 01:28:00[laughter] and was just waiting until I could finally get consent from my mother to not go back, and luckily at seventeen I did, I was done. And I didn't go back to church for years. I was not having it. Yeah.

TK: Do you go to church every Sunday now?

CR: So I [interruption] fizzy water. So for a minute I did. When the pandemic started I stopped, I am no longer in church. Well, I'm still technically a member at this church, so a little tidbit, the church that is open and affirming and I am a member of is actually right down the street from me in North County. It's called St. Peter's United Church of Christ. It is a United Church of Christ denomination church. It is only one of I'm going to say two open and affirming 01:29:00churches here in North County. There are no other open and affirming churches here in North County. All the other affirming churches are kind of scattered around St. Louis, but there are only two open and affirming churches here in North County. I go to one. And the other one is called Zion United Church of Christ, another United Church of Christ church. And they're located more so in Florissant. But let me focus.

So yes, I used to go, kind of try to go every Sunday before the pandemic. Now that the pandemic has heated up, I'm no longer going to church. I did go to a Good Friday service and the Maundy Thursday service for Holy Week, but for the most part I have not been in church. Partially because I am just, I'm at a point in my life where I'm doing some growing up outside of the church. I'm still a 01:30:00Christian, but I am experiencing some nonsatisfaction. I want more, I don't--I want more activism in the community from churches, and I'm also doing some self-education, doing some self-reading, some self-learning. And trying to find my own beliefs in Christianity. Not necessarily making up my own thing, but just trying to figure out where I feel things and where I'm comfortable at. So I want, I'm not in church at the moment, going to church at the moment.

TK: What are some of your beliefs in the church?

CR: That's a great question [laughter]. Some of my beliefs. I want [pause] oh my 01:31:00god, you have no idea. That is such a heavy question [laughter]. I just, my thing is, if I could sum it up. So, we're supposed--as Christians we're called to serve the least of these, and it feels like for me ( ) words are hard. To me, the church has gotten so comfortable, they have gotten completely, almost, excuse me. The church has gotten completely away from the true message of Jesus Christ. They're more focused on worshiping--they're more focused on putting 01:32:00Jesus on a pedestal than actually delving into his message of helping people. They are comfortable in power when we are not called to be a people of power. They, and I'm talking about the Christians we see. These evangelicals, the people that have all this power ( ) politicians. They're so focused on things like, you know, 'Don't Say Gay' and getting rid of Critical Race Theory, and banning abortion, and all this stuff and people are suffering, and they think they're doing the work of God. When really they're contributing to a culture of violence, a culture of patriarchy, of racism, I could go on and on.

But really, it's just exhausting and so, it's funny. I'm more out [laughter], 01:33:00I'm more comfortable coming out as LGBT than I am as Christian sometimes, because it's just, you know I try to be patient because a lot of people have been traumatized by Christian folk. And as much as I would love to, you know, say, "hey, that's not all of us," you know, that "not all men," "not all white people," that "not all" this and that has never been helpful. It's not helpful, because at the end of the day, a lot of y'all are, you know what I mean? And so it's really frustrating. The church I go to is not this way, they're actually, the church I'm a member of, they're very activist, they're very pro Black Lives Matter. They are supportive of LGBT people, they're supportive of a lot of different things. It's wonderful, but I just, the church universal. It's for the 01:34:00most part has been just exhausting and frustrating, and progressive Christianity is often not considered real Christianity, which is wild to me, because we're about caring for the least of these and supporting minorities and supporting women, and caring for the, you know, embracing immigrants. But it's not the popular Christianity. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what to do. That's wild that were practicing the actual theology that we're taught, but we're not considered real Christians. I don't know. I don't want to ramble, but I hope I'm making some sort of sense there.

TK: Yeah. Have you ever questioned your belief in God because of the teachings?

CR: Somewhat yes, somewhat no. There's a lot of asking why [laughter]. If this, then why this, you know. There are some days where my faith has one hundred percent been shaken. To the point where I feel really disconnected. I've never not believed in God, but there are days where I feel disconnected to the point where I don't know what anything is, and so, well I guess that could be considered disbelief some days. But, there's never been a time where I've ever considered myself atheist, or agnostic. But there are some days where it's too much, not necessarily being a Christian is too much, but just figuring out the 01:36:00weight of "why." If that makes any sense at all. There's a lot of trauma to try to figure out, and especially being a person that is not a theologian, not a biblical scholar, I don't, trying to, it's very daunting. Yeah, excuse me.

But even on my bad days, I still feel, I still feel some sort of--it's hard to figure out how to say. Even on my worst days, I still feel like there is a God that is in motion, and I still feel like there is hope, and I still feel like there are better things to come. And I'm not saying that in a way where it's like toxic positivity, like you know, "always keep your head up, everything's 01:37:00going to get better," you know what I mean? But it's, I always feel like yes, but there's more. If that means something. And I think in those moments that is where God is. In the bad and the good. Yeah.

TK: Thank you, that was--

CR: [Laughter]

TK: Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about in this interview?

CR: You know, my thing that I'm really interested in is accessibility [interruption]. So I've always been interested in accessibility anyway. I'm trying to get better at being a disability rights activist. I myself am 01:38:00neurodivergent and so I have, depending on how you see ADHD and anxiety, they can be very disabling. I'm a caregiver to someone who is disabled, he has autism. He is my brother, he is my light, he is also a pain in my head [laughter]. So even before the pandemic I was really interested in trying to get better at being a disability activist and navigating the pandemic and watching disabled folks of all types come out and talk about how the pandemic has affected them and how they're being ignored. Especially a lot of chronically ill folks, has just been so goddamn exhausting to watch and frustrating. Because you're seeing people screaming and shouting about how this is hurting them and is going to hurt them and will continue to hurt them. It's just nothing from 01:39:00wider society, I know the CDC has gotten in a lot of trouble for comments they have made about people in the pandemic, especially a lot of people who may be ill. Some of the things they're saying, especially about, you know, not necessarily needing to be masked or how they're doing vaccinations.

There was an article that came out, was it a month ago? I want to say a month or so ago about now how the CDC is saying, "if you have COVID you don't necessarily have to be quarantined," as long, and a lot of people with disabilities, a lot of chronically ill folks especially were a saying, "do you understand that you are putting is in danger?" You know, you're saying, you're claiming that this is all around science, but we're in danger, you know what I mean? A lot of chronically ill folks are shouting from the rooftops. So I want to get better at that, so I'm trying to learn about making things more accessible. That's where 01:40:00my passion is, I like accessibility. And accessibility looks like a lot of different things. Accessibility, when it comes to people who don't have the money to pay for things, accessibility for disabled folks, chronically ill folks, neurodivergent folks. Accessibility for people who many not speak English. So that's my passion, is making sure everything is accessible as possible. And so, that's where I would like my activism to be and get better at. And so I'm encouraging people to look at their blind spots and see where we can be more accessible people, yeah [interruption]. That's ( ) dog, I'm sorry.

TK: Thank you for sharing that with me. Was there anything else you hoped that I would ask you in the interview?

CR: I don't know, I was open to anything you had [laughter]. You asked a lot of good questions. And I'm very curious about this class because this seems like a really cool project.

TK: Mmhmm, yeah. Yeah, I enjoy the class [laughter]. Okay, well I'm going to stop the recording in just a second. Thank you so much, this was wonderful.

CR: Thank you.

END OF INTERVIEW