Bobby Bloch by Levi Cullifer

00:00:03

Levi Cullifer: Okay, so this is Levi Cullifer, I am interviewing Bobby Block or Robert Bloch aka Bobby. Today is April 29 at 4pm and we are recording over Zoom platform. So, Bobby, if you want to go ahead and state your name your age, when you were born, the basic the basic stuff?

00:00:38

Robert Bloch: Okay um my name is Bobby Bloch, I am 40 years old and born November of '81 in Madison, Wisconsin and grew up in St. Louis. I am an educator and it's pretty much the basics.

00:01:04

Levi Cullifer: I kind of I think I might have heard you wrong, did you say you're four years old?

00:01:08

Robert Bloch: 40

00:01:09

Levi Cullifer: 40, Okay, that's what I thought. Let's see, what pronouns do you go by?

00:01:20

Robert Bloch: I go by he/him/his pronouns.

00:01:23

Levi Cullifer: Okay, and how do you define, if you do, how do you define yourself in terms of sexuality and gender?

00:01:35

Robert Bloch: So, in terms of sexuality, I refer to myself as a being gay or sometimes being queer--

00:01:45

Levi Cullifer: Okay

00:01:47:

Robert Bloch: Um, in terms of gender identity, I identify as a male, although I do understand that there is, you know, as sexuality is fluid, gender identity is 00:02:00fluid, and you know I think there, there are moments, where I feel the feminine and masculine kind of colliding but, in general I identify as a male.

00:02:17

Levi Cullifer: Okay cool. I like how you put in queer, that's how I--. While I typically say gay, everything else I say queer. But yeah, so you kind of started with this, but how can you--. Begin with talking about like growing up where were you born, where did you live siblings family structure stuff like that.

00:02:44

Robert Bloch: So, I was born in Madison, Wisconsin; I was adopted. And my parents who adopted me my dad was working at Kimberly Clark, and they were both from St. Louis so that's how I ended up back here, move back here the age of 00:03:00three, the early 80s and You know, pretty much was here from age of three until I left for college. I have a younger sister, who is about six years younger than me so she'll, she'll be 34 this year, she was born in '88 she was also adopted and other than that you know my mom, my dad, my sister, and me. I do have a 12-year-old son, who is my biological son, I get a lot of questions about that [laughter] um because people get confused um--

00:03:53

Levi Cullifer: And that's something we can talk about maybe a little bit later.

00:03:56

Robert Bloch: --yeah, yeah. um. You know I went to the same school for 13 years; 00:04:00I went to a private school here in St. Louis from kindergarten through 12th grade and very interestingly um--. I think at the time, you know sexuality and gender was very rigidly defined, which I can go more into um. I don't know what else do you want me to.

00:04:32.

Levi Cullifer: No, you're basically hitting all the bases and, and I probably forgot to mention this, if there's anything you don't want to talk about just, please just say that. [pause] Being adopted has, how has that, has that changed your view on anything, or how has that played in your life?

00:05:03

Robert Bloch: Um, well, one you know there's always been questions in the back 00:05:00of my mind of who I am, and you know, in terms of heritage in terms of race, ethnicity, in terms of where I come from and I think in a general sense, it makes me not take things for granted that the fact that I grew up economically privileged was all happenstances. Then that easily the life that I've been afforded may not have come to be. Kind of a quick little anecdote about what of, what I know about my adoption it's an interesting story. My biological mother, so I was raised Jewish, my biological mother was Jewish, Russian Jewish woman, she was traveling throughout Europe, and I believe the Middle East, met my 00:06:00biological Father who's not American he's actually from Iran, and was going to school for a chemical engineering and she met him. And I guess they had some sort of relationship and when she came back to the states, she found out she was pregnant and hide it from her parents, hide it from her family, left where she was to go to Wisconsin because their sister was in school there, and so her sister is the only person who knows that she; I don't know if she had another family, I don't know she has children, I could be her only child, but as far as my, like that situation, she's the only one that her sister is only one that knows I exists. And I have, through the State of Wisconsin they've closed adoption laws and because mine was a closed adoption I have to. Every five years 00:07:00I'm able to write a letter that the adoption agency then sends my biological mother and each, this has happened a couple times, I think this fall I can do it again, she hasn't said no flat out, she said "For the time being I can't," you know. She'll be, she's basically like because of my situation, I so. You know, whatever it is, whatever the-- I glean from the situation there's trauma surrounding my birth in terms of the situation and my father not being from this country and all that. So it's complex and I don't know, you know even though she's a 60 something year old woman, now to face it all the time later, I think it'd be quite difficult; but I am hopeful that someday I will, even if it's just once, I'll be able to talk to her and just have that confirmation of who I am. 00:08:00But that's, you know, that's a-- that's a weird thing to just not know where you come from and not know certain things about yourself.

00:08:15

Levi Cullifer: No that's very, I mean that's a very interesting background. Has your-- what, did your adoptive family, or your family, did they ever integrate any of that different ethnicity into your life? So, you said Iranian and Russian?

00:08:46

Robert Bloch: And, and so it's funny because I've gotten this from 23 and Me, but I kind of suspected that there was some different ethnicity. Just because in 00:09:00pictures, I always look a little darker I, I now refer myself as "white passing" because I very much look white but if you look on paper it's not exactly that. Um, especially in the summertime, I get several shades darker and it, you know becomes noticeable. And yeah, they never, I don't think they knew. I think they just assumed that I was white. Um, and also kind of, it's like it's a kind of a joke because it's like "well you're not, of course you're white." But it's like-- I don't know, It's, I-I've talked about it with other white passing people, how, like I met somebody recently who's Latino but he's like "I am a white passing person" and he's about my complexion or like I have a friend, a 00:10:00good friend who's Egyptian, And then the summer I laugh because I'm darker than she is, but I remember when I got my 23 and me, and we were sitting down and having lunch and she started laughing just like "I knew it I knew, you were Middle Eastern I knew it." And I've always felt very close to that culture like I know it's like it's not really a culture it's it's a widespread of different countries, but I've always felt very close to the food of the Middle East and just at large Middle Eastern culture and the people I've traveled there I feel like very at home and it's something that I can't really explain so--. I was not surprised when I discovered that.

00:10:51

Levi Cullifer: hmm okay, so have-- you said that you've you've done somethings now in your, in your adult life to kind of connect to those areas. Have you done 00:11:00any the same for your mother side, you're Russian--00:11:10

Robert Bloch: I mean her side you know; I was raised Jewish, I consider myself a non-religious Jew. Interestingly, this is another interesting facet; I, in my 20s, I went to Israel, and I have family that lives there. My family, who adopted me family, the Bloch family, I have family that lives there who are French. And after going there I don't I don't know if it was this sense of belonging, but it thrusted me into practicing more religiously, so you know I kept kosher and I didn't I went to synagogue and I didn't drive or you know followed Sabbath rules and I did the whole thing. And, interestingly that kind 00:12:00of, and I can talk more about this, that's when people ask me why I got married, I think that piece came at the time when I just happened to have who's my ex-wife, she was a good friend, it just kind of collided, at the same time, so I ended up you know marrying her. I think, because of this internalize, internalized homophobia, as a result of becoming more religious. So, I really do understand religious fanaticism, I kind of went through a mini version of that myself.

00:12:48

Levi Cullifer: um I guess while we are on religion, we can, we could actually go into that a little bit more if you'd like. Um, growing up, you said you your family was Jewish, did they follow, did they follow any of the rules or, or any 00:13:00religious facets?

00:13:09

Robert Bloch: So, so, in general, no, although when I was really little I think my dad went through something similar that I went through in my through my 20s. Where I went to a Jewish day school and um we kept kosher and it was his his right after his mother died, so I think he kind of went through a mini more religious phase. And then by the time my sister was born, so I was like six it stopped like we, I mean we'd go to synagogue on like Rosh Hashanah and stuff and celebrate major holidays, but it wasn't any huge deal. We were definitely considered reform.

00:13:56

Levi Cullifer: Okay, that was that was gonna be my next question. I have, I have 00:14:00a friend who is Jewish as well, and I think that she falls into the reformed area, and when you went to Israel did that seem to still stay that way, or would you say you kind of changed?

00:14:16

Robert Bloch: After high school I'd say the trajectory started moving in the direction of becoming more orthodox. In college I got very involved in Hillel House, I lived in the Hillel House, I actually, one of my roommates is now a gay rabbi in the northeast, my roommate Adam. And I just, a lot of my college experience was around Judaism, I would not have considered myself still a religious Jew, but then I think it, as I was going into my 20s and certainly when I went to Israel, I felt this, I mean, looking back I can kind of understand it, because I was suppressing my sexuality, so I was looking for a 00:15:00sense of belonging and something, and so I like I was I've always been a type like I take on something I go full throttle into it. Um and I was actually having this conversation with my mom recently and she said that you know I always went through these phases, and I explained her well this this right now being gay this, this is not the phase, this final state myself, this this is who I really am. Like now, I Finally don't feel like I have to fit into anything or adhere to any sort of rules or dress a certain way I just sent myself.

00:15:42

Levi Cullifer: For those who might listen to this later, can you explain a little bit about that what the differences between Reformed and Orthodox and then there's a third category if I'm not mistaken.

00:15:53

Robert Bloch: There's a lot of little categories, so the the main categories are Reform, Conservative - well Re-Reconstructionist Reform, Conservative and 00:16:00Orthodox and within Orthodox there's Hasidic and then there's different types of Hasidic but that's getting very detailed. So in general, there's Reconstructionist, which is like very, very progressive; Reform, which is you know can vary from synagogue to synagogue, how you interpret laws and do things I mean you're still doing ritual, but like differences and in more progressive in the reform, sect. The prayer books are going to be more in English, women are allowed up to the bema or basically the altar the version of the alter, women can, women can be rabbis. Man, and women don't have to sit separately in the synagogue, little things like that maybe--. I I always have a joke with my friends that you're going to West when they have the best all you can eat shrimp Buffet like you're not supposed to eat shrimp, but reform Jews aren't 00:17:00necessarily being kosher, maybe they won't eat pork, but maybe they'll eat shrimp. When you get into Conservative Judaism now like, maybe in some conservative synagogues, although not many, men and women might start sitting separately, you're going to see more men with the tallitot, the prayer shawl on, and more women covering their head. Still egalitarianist in the sense that men and women can come up to the bema, but you might not see women rabbis. So it's getting a little bit more, and you'll see more Hebrew in the service so it's getting a little bit more traditional. And then Orthodox where women and men sit separately there's often a wall between them, called the mechitza, families are keeping the laws of kashrut at home. If you're on an Orthodox Jew you won't need out in restaurants, if they're not kosher. Basically, you know you'll you're 00:18:00eating at home I mean my my parents have friends who are Orthodox and they go out to dinner, and the couple will just order things like fish or salad not like meats or things that are problematic .00:18:20

Robert Bloch: And then, what are some other distinctions? I mean, really, as you get more traditional in Judaism just the levels of observance change, so like you're going to be going to synagogue more often, men will go to synagogue every morning and put on what are known as Tefillin which are prayer boxes you put on your head and your arm. Women and men have very separate roles, women can't be Rabbis, women can't go up to the altar of the bema ah, they sit separately. Um, I went to a Bar Mitzvah and Israel were even and it was a Hasidic Bar Mitzvah where the men and women were eating separately, now that's that's like very, 00:19:00very strict. And during the Bar Mitzvah I remember all the men were out like in on the floor, and there was a little window at the top, where I could see the women watching. So the women are like very, very separate, women cover cover their head, you'll often see women wearing scarves or, or wigs, they, you know, they don't show arms or legs. So there's a lot there's a lot of similarity when when you start talking about like you know more conservative or more fundamental like sects of Islam and also Christianity there's a lot of crossover.

00:19:43

Levi Cullifer: Wow okay um.

00:19:46

Robert Bloch: I don't know if that was too detailed, I get--

00:19:47

Levi Cullifer: Oh no no definitely that was, I mean good context to have, um so when you went to Israel, did you have a-- never mind I'm going to save that 00:20:00question till later.

00:20:07

Robert Bloch: Okay.

00:20:09

Levi Cullifer: So kind of jump, ahh maybe a little bit to education. So, can you talk about, you know, type of education you got from like elementary high school to college, degrees you have, if you're still ongoing in your education and maybe even include religious education.

00:20:39

Robert Bloch: So, in general um I in kindergarten I started at Mary I Country Day, which is now, MICDS. I went there from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade so elementary school, middle school, high school. Um it had its rewards and its challenges I think educationally it was a great fit, socially 00:21:00maybe not so much because I was always somebody who did my own thing, and I didn't do what everybody else wanted. And I think back when I know it's changed but back when I was going there, it was a little bit more conservative socially. So I was, I knew I was gay, I was I didn't know exactly what that meant for me, but I was terrified I remember learning about in fourth grade learning about AIDS and thinking, I mean I didn't I didn't know I was gay necessarily back then, but as I was coming of age and seeing the AIDS crisis had a huge effect on me because I thought, if I'm going to be gay that I'm going to die of AIDS that's literally my my thinking so I'm like "well, I guess, I can't be gay." So, I had this ingrained in me not only a fear of being gay, but that it was bad to be gay um. Although I have a classmate, who was the first person to take a guy 00:22:00to prom or a same sex person to prom, um and there were maybe a couple people who were out in high school but it's not it's not like it is now, and they were harassed, they were given crap for it.

After high school, I went to school in Ohio, I went to a small abroad school called Kenyon College and I was heavily I started getting involved in theater in high school and then continued in college, and so I mean I hung out with people who are gay and bisexual and I'll add this too, because this is an important kind of this goes in education. Go, my, going into my junior and senior year that there used to be a program that Earlham College in Indiana where you would go for, I don't know, a few weeks, take a class or to add like like you're 00:23:00living in college, but it was you'd be with kids from all over. That had a huge influence on me I'm kind of looking back surprised, they didn't come out, then because that was legitimately the first time that I found my tribe, like of people not only like gay people but just like people who had blue hair, and people who had you know nose rings, and people who are Wickin, and people who were just had different lifestyles that I wanted to be around those type of people, so I was--. I really feel like after those two years I came into my own and got a superpower of like this is, who I am like Fuck y'all I don't care um. The one piece that I wasn't still wasn't owning up to you, though, was being gay I mean I knew very well. I remember when I was in Indiana and I had a roommate, who is also from Missouri from rural area and he told me he's like "Oh, I like 00:24:00boys and I like girls, what about you?" And I, like hesitated, like my heart was beating really fast, I wanted to say "I like boys," but you know I didn't say anything but I, I mean it would have been fine to come out if, I know very well if I would have come out then, when I was you know, like I would have been like I'm sure like spirit meeting with boys and doing other stuff and things probably would have been fine now. What else I can talk about this to later I mean everything happens in its own time, so had I come out then, my son wouldn't exist you know, so there's that. Um, I might have you know I really wanted to be an actor, I wanted to move to Hollywood I know it sounds really like-- ethereal but um I was, I was really into theater and really into acting and there are 00:25:00people who told me, "you should go to Hollywood," and "you know, get an agent," and I have had a director I worked with in high school who lived in LA with his wife and family and he invited me to come out there, my parents wouldn't let me go. But if I would have just gone, like, I wonder, like, I sometimes wonder about like there's this parallel me like living in West Hollywood like living my best gay life, being an actor, but it was sometime through college that I, I heard Bobby Seale, who was a Black Panther give a lecture and he was talking about social justice and that lit something in me that I was like "I don't want to act, that's stupid, I'm gonna, I want to be an activist, I want to get involved in social justice" that started me on that journey. Then, after Kenyan, I went to Tufts in Boston for their education, I got a master's in education 00:26:00there, was a yearlong program also heavily focused on social justice in education. I still am very good friends with my advisor from that program we become good friends, she was in my, I had a social justice book group over zoom during the pandemic and she was involved in that. And then, after that I stayed Massachusetts while I taught at a boarding school there then move back to St. Louis then move to New York when I got married then move back to St. Louis again, so I've been back you're almost like almost eight years now closer to 10. And thinking, I'll continue on the thing of education, so I'm currently getting my Ed in social justice leadership at UMSL. I basically have a year under my belt I, this is semester two is about to be over. In about a week and a half I'm 00:27:00about to go into summer classes. I'm in my dissertation group already so that's kind of-- the train's rollen and the train's out of the station. My group of me and two other people we're going to be talking about that really the equity of how class, how teachers teach in terms of that student centered learning, and project based learning, and experiential learning should be in every school, especially in schools with black or brown students versus test taking and wrote memorization and more of the Charter-ization of schools so we're showing we're going to be trying to show the challenges and pitfalls of why various schools, especially schools that serve Brown and black populations are not able to offer more experiential learning.

00:28:00

Levi Cullifer: So is that what your dissertation is over? [nods head] Okay, just 00:28:00wanted to double check.

00:28:06

Robert Bloch: Yep. That is my that is going to be my dissertation topic.

00:28:10

Levi Cullifer: ah--

00:28:11

Robert Bloch: Looking at how classes should be more of a heutagogical approach than a pedagogical approach.

00:28:22

Levi Cullifer: Okay. Can you explain what heutagogical is?

00:28:24

Robert Bloch: So I just I actually just learned this, I didn't know there were-- so um heutagogy heutagogy is more student centered where students are more so choosing what they're learning and maybe more independent, it's more project based it's not where the teachers are deciding what's in the curriculum and what students need to know or it's based off of a standards based curriculum that's determined by the State. Really the students are setting what it is they need to know and it's more of the teachers as a guide not the not the absolute end all 00:29:00be all, so like students will choose the books they read and maybe you have, you know, three different books, like these kids are reading this book, and these kids are reading this book, and these and instead of writing an essay, they do a project and the project they do is more creative and--. It's just a very different way of teaching it's a very different approach, more hands on learning through doing.

00:29:39

Levi Cullifer: So, in that sense, do they still take regular subjects I would assume-- [Bobby nods] okay.

00:29:46

Robert Bloch: They do. It's just, it's more, they have, there's more of a not only a like cross curricular approach, but more of a just just more of a 00:30:00student-centered approach where students are crafting their own--. Like it's what you'd see maybe in a Waldorf school or like a gifted program where it's more independent learning.

00:30:14

Levi Cullifer: Okay, okay. Um so. So, I guess that can, that leads into like your job sphere, so you are a teacher, are an educator, however you like to label that. So, what are your thoughts then on education in, and I guess any different setting, you did say something about the different types of schools and their benefits and drawbacks, can you also like kind of hit on that as well.

00:30:57

Robert Bloch: So, I'm fortunate and that I've taught in a lot of different types 00:31:00of schools so I taught in a boarding school, I've taught in an urban independent school, I taught an independent progressive school in New York, I taught at a magnet school, I taught at a charter school, I so I've seen a lot of different structures um. I guess, like in general, the pros like so for school that's an independent school, like a private school; the pros you know would be you have students who really care about learning, but then you also get helicopter parents. So I think the challenge becomes and I've seen this in my experience is parents were too pushy um who were emailing you at all hours of the night, calling you and you can, I mean depending on the school, you know if, I think in 00:32:00any school, you have to have administration support, but at private schools you sometimes feel like the parents are-- like you're, you're the parents butler that you're doing there you know, they just they just look at you like "I'm paying your paycheck so you better do everything I say." My experience hasn't been completely like that, but I have had experience with pushy parents. More so in private school than I have in public school. Public school, obviously, and especially in urban public schools and by definition schools that serve brown and black children, it's not the parents aren't involved it's that when you have obviously students at a it's more of an economic thing with a different economic 00:33:00level. You're going to have parents who are working multiple jobs, you're going to have parents who may be a working the night shift, they don't necessarily have time so it's more on you as the teacher, you have to make the time to contact the parent. Which since I've been in that atmosphere, I've done, um you know they're not going to be the ones to call you like you know people will say "oh these parents don't show up for conferences" and I'm kind of like "okay well call them call them, then they might not come because they're not able to call them. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be talking to, you know you know it's not going to be like when I was in private school and during conferences, they would fill up my sheet with their names and like cross out my bathroom breaks and cross out my dinner break and put their name and because they're all egar to be there, I get it. But it's it's it's more of an economic thing that a race thing is, at least from my experience, because when I mean, you know, when you have parents who are able to afford a private school education that's a whole 00:34:00different thing um and. I think another. I think I'm kind of going on a tangent about misnomers but like another misnomer about teaching in an urban environment with brown, black, brown and black children is that they don't care that's also not true, these kids very much so care. I think, though-- I, and this is what I'm studying my classes, they have family members and parents who have undergone trauma from education and so now, they are also inheriting and going through their own trauma through education so they don't necessarily trust educators or administrators because they're extensions of systems that have only screwed them over. So, I mean it's all it's all about privilege. So, I don't know if my 00:35:00tangent makes any sense?

00:35:06

Levi Cullifer: No, it does, it very much does. So, currently you're working in public education?

00:35:12

Robert Bloch: I am. I work at Normandy, currently I am leaving this year and I'm going to work for Ritenour next year. I could get into all the problems, I'm not going to because there are a lot of them, I might have to write a whole exposé about it because there is a lot going on.

00:35:29

Levi Cullifer: um can you talk about what you specifically do or teach, I know I don't think you teach a specific subject or have you? but you can can you talk about that.

00:35:45

Robert Bloch: yeah so I, since I've been at Normandy, I have mostly taught ELA: English, reading, and writing. I was hired to help build and structure an alternative problem alternative school which is called Casa, Center for 00:36:00Alternative, um no. Center for Academic and Social Advancement, sorry. Um and it was started in 2017, so I was there from the very beginning. Started as a credit recovery program, so back in 2017, you know, we were getting a lot of students, mostly seniors, who are behind in their credits, and they would use an online program called Odyssey and then I would kind of, we were kind of expected to do like a hybrid of direct instruction, like student by student, and then helping them with online learning. I realized very quickly that the students were-- a lot of them couldn't do the English curriculum online, because it was the reading level was too high, like some of the stuff I didn't even understand when it was about they were having kids read you know excerpts from Moby Dick I'm 00:37:00just like-- like "no, this is not working." So, I I pivoted quickly to a project-based curriculum and individualizing, so what one student did for a semester of English look very different than one another student did and I, I had the luxury of having small classes, so I got to know my students very well and know what they were good and bad at. So, like if this kid I knew they could draw, or paint, or create some sort of artwork that would be a project that would revolve around you know something they were reading, or you know I would do a project where I had students investigate a current events issue and then make a presentation about it. I do something where students would teach me about something that they really cared about. So, one student picked tattooing and she talked about the history of tattooing and showed me some of her tattoo designs and so I like that idea of of figu-- one figuring out what my students are good 00:38:00at, not forcing them to necessarily read Shakespeare, and then you know tailoring what they needed to get done for English as long as there's, you know I know what those standards are in the back of my head, so you know as long as I'm teaching them skills and I know they need to know how to read and write that's the goal, um that's a method in my madness. And so over at my time at Casa, I wasn't only doing that I I've taken on many administrative tasks, I'm not an administrator on paper but anybody in my program will tell you that I am I I'm a partial administrator because I am the one like checking kids credits, I'm looking at transcripts, I mean I mean I'm not the only one doing this, but 00:39:00I've kind of become the go to for to figure out like how many credits does a kid have, what classes they need, I'm going to add the classes in their online software, monitoring the online software, and then you know also facilitating you know the EOC tests, and the ACT work key's tests, making sure kids take those tests. So I've taken on a lot of different roles, other than just teaching English and gladly take those things on sounds like a lot, but I like doing it because you know I want to make sure these kids are getting what they need, especially so they can graduate so it's like "okay well, you have all that you have 23 credits, you need these two classes now, you need to take your biology EOC now you're going to be done." So...

00:39:53

Levi Cullifer: So, we'll just also transfer over to Ritter?

00:39:59

Robert Bloch: um it might, um I know they know that I've done those things, so I 00:40:00don't know what capacity they'll need that at their alternative program because it's going to be a little different um but I'm hopeful that I'll also be called on to do similar things in that program.

00:40:26

Levi Cullifer: Okay, so what is your thoughts that then on the state of public education? Maybe not, you could talk specifically in St. Louis, in the state, or country or however you are, ever you want to frame it.

00:40:46

Robert Bloch: Well, I will say in general, I feel like there needs to be a revolution in the way that schools deliver material and the way that schools are structured. I have this crazy idea that, instead of having a high school of 5000 00:41:00kids you break that high school up into different high schools so having a high school that perform, that focuses on performing arts, having one that focuses on vocational skills, having one that's an alternative school have, and then having just traditional one. So, like instead of having one day high school, breaking it up and letting kids choose. So it's like, you know, instead of going to you know Hazelwood West it's like you know many schools within a school. And you know you have programs that fit the needs of those students um I don't I don't you know I don't have the answers to how to make that happen, I do know that the Betsy DeVos frame of thought around education is alive and well. Um, there are 00:42:00powers in played to make sure that brown and black neighborhoods are injected with charter schools and charter schools that are corporate charter schools, I feel very strongly against that. I am not, I don't want to say I'm anti-charter, there are some charters that work but, in general, schools, like Kipp, and schools that follow this corporate model should not that should not be a thing you know they steal resources from the district that they sit in and, for instance, a lot of the Charter schools in St. Louis are in St. Louis City, you don't see any in Clayton, you don't see any in Parkway, and you never will, never will, you're always going to see, and right now, I will say just generally without getting into too many specifics, because I don't want to get myself in trouble. I know the state of Missouri is working on not only dissolving Normandy 00:43:00but dissolving the other black districts in North County and turning them into charter schools. Which to me is sad because it's not helping anybody you know you have in St. Louis specifically what's sad to see, you have these black schools which at one point were very strong and because of a lot of different factors, those schools have become diluted and have lost the power that they once had. And so, when you look at a school like Sumner which they tried to close, or Normandy, or Riverview Gardens, you're like "oh those schools are terrible--." Well, that's because they've been systematically turned into what they are, it's not the fault of the kids and it's not a fault of parents. Um I don't even want to say generally it's a fault of the system, but it's kinda like 00:44:00how, you know, certain neighborhoods are dangerous well those are blighted, those neighborhoods are also where black and brown people live. So you know we have this history across the country of spaces with black and brown people are, are pejoratively negative and that's been done on purpose, and like I say that very, very confidently because that's the stuff I study in my classes and read about, I see the strategic, you know, planning about in in specifically in St. Louis about how you know the West County mutant municipalities were built to keep black people out. You know stories about Meacham Park, and Elmwood Park, and Kinlock, which were historic black communities that at one time became annexed by the surrounding white community but the, the conditions never improved in in those black communities within a white community. I mean it's the 00:45:00same with schools, so I you know I feel very strongly, I'm not, I don't want to say I'm against busing, but I see, we talked about this to my program how busing was not necessarily meant to just be a catch-all you know to just take black kids out of their neighborhood schools and send them in a white neighborhoods and white schools. It's not, it sounds good on paper, but like what about you know, making sure, what about busing the white kids these good black schools, because those existed too. Or what about instead of spending money on taking black kids out of their neighborhood why don't you make it possible for black kids to go to the schools in their neighborhood and not destroy their community. So, that's my little take on things.

00:45:56

Levi Cullifer: No, I'm really glad that you, you shared that. Education, one of 00:46:00the, one of the big topics, you know, and that we currently have. Kind of going back to your work. Do you, do you have any goals or aspirations for like what your I guess dream, "dream job" is, or are you pretty content with where you're at now?

00:46:30

Robert Bloch: So where I want to go is, I don't necessarily have a specific eye on anything I just know I want to move into leadership, and that doesn't mean like principal or superintendent. It could mean maybe getting involved in policymaking, maybe getting involved in politics, because I know that I feel very strongly about race and equity in education, like I will yell about it until I'm blue in the face like I talked about it so passionately because that's 00:47:00where my heart is at. So I would like to walk into a position where I am actually able to effect real change to happen, saying that is easier said than done, because I know the state we live in, I know if I got involved in policymaking or politics I'm going to have to learn to talk with people who don't see eye to eye with me and I get real frustrated with people who I know are bigots and who I know are countering what I'm saying, because they don't understand. Um so you know I'm learning, I'm learning how to be able to talk to people on another side of an issue to make them realize the validity of what I'm saying and not watered down my passion, but to use my passion in a way that I 00:48:00can effectively advocate and empower and effect for change of marginalized communities.

00:48:19

Levi Cullifer: Kind of going on with that, but you know leading to something else, what are your thoughts about queer kids in in schools? So have you have you seen--, I don't even know how to phrase the question, what are your thoughts on that, have you seen things in education that you know towards the queer community that can go either way.

00:48:51

Robert Bloch: So it's funny because what bridges that from the other question is I've put this idea to the side and come back to it, but one thing I think about 00:49:00is perhaps having my own school or program for queer kids in St. Louis--

00:49:10

Levi Cullifer: Wow

00:49:12

Robert Bloch: --and it would be an intersection of economics and race, and so it would, I don't know exactly what it would look like, I say it's either a program or a school but we're queer kids could go and not worry about being queer not worry about being called names, they could just be who they are. Um and you know it's like, then you can just come and learn, and you know you don't have to worry about your identity you don't have to worry about someone getting your pronouns wrong, like we got you. Like I'm, also easier said than done, but I've talked about this idea with other friends and education, and they also have had similar ideas and what makes me specifically think about that is one of the schools I worked at, St. Louis Central Visual Performing Arts School is a school 00:50:00that for the most part, exemplifies great solidarity with the student, the student population there was very at whole with each other's queerness and celebrated it. You know you'd have boys voguing in the hallway, and girls celebrating you know their anniversary, or like you know declaring you know "I am transgender, I want to go by this name" and kids are like applauding. I remember part of my coming out process happened there where I told my students first and they were crying and applauding and like they were so happy and, and to a lot of them I became this example of somebody who is just living their life unapologetically. And you know I've had students write to me and say you know I 00:51:00look to you as, as being a source of strength, for you know somebody to look a queer person to look up to, and I mean that speaks volumes, to me. Especially because I came out later, and I think about how I know that there are so many queer, gay, trans, you know all the other identities out there who are struggling, who feel like they don't have a place and I don't know I I really think about that future of what if I had a program or school where those kids could go and feel, feel safety, feel belonging, feel validity? If they were kicked out of their home, they'd have a place to go. You know, more than a Community Center, maybe not entirely a school, but you know I'm still wrapping my head around this idea, because just as much as there are queer kids, you know 00:52:00who are poor and black, or queer kids who are you know middle class and black, and upper middle class and white, and you know have all different cross sections, so I think about what if those kids had a space to come together and not only learn about the inner sexual identities that each other, have what they all have in common is that they're all queer.

00:52:36

Levi Cullifer: That sounds awesome. What about specifically within the schools you have worked at, or your knowledge of another school districts, the ident-- in the process of students, you know being queer and being in a public school system.

00:53:02

Robert Bloch: Right, so like I said at when I was at the performing arts school all kids were at whole with their identity, and I'd say I mean most of the adults were on board, although I remember, there is one teacher who would always refer to one of my students by the wrong pronouns, the wrong name, and I always correct him. Um so you know in a truly liberated space you'd have to have everybody who shares the same mindset because you know even, even if a school purports to be or seems to be liberated or on board with being, like understanding sexuality and gender identity it's never it's never going to 00:54:00necessarily be 100% like you have to really carefully groom who you're hiring you know the adults that you have and there's so many just in a general sense there's so many schools out there that have toxic adults, because the the adults haven't dealt with their stuff. So you know if you're going to have adults calling using the F A G word or using wrong pronouns or I'm, that's not okay. I mean, and now we're fighting a bigger battle of, you know, schools that don't want to teach critical race theory or the don't say gay law in Florida, so I feel like it's now in those two things in my mind go together like we're celebrating all our identities and all our histories and so you know if this this school that I imagine would be a place where everybody feels seeing 00:55:00everybody feels heard, but like in a you know not like in a "we were rainbow stickers day" like we're actually doing the work. It's not a hashtag we're doing the work which is, which is not easy. I got, I mean, I guess what I'm describing as a place that like it's not only central to queer identity, but like on the idea of social justice, like the two things go hand-in-hand. Um I get very tired of seeing a lot of young gay people and I've seen very generally you don't care about social justice. But because I am between, like I'm on the older and the millennials, so I saw the gen X gay generation fighting for rights when people were dying of AIDS I'm thinking about stonewall like in my mind, social justice and social action goes like, if you're gay you have, like you almost have to be 00:56:00invested in it in some degree.

00:56:08

Levi Cullifer: Like knowing your history,

00:56:10

Robert Bloch: Exactly.

00:56:11

Levi Cullifer: Where you've come from.

00:56:12

Robert Bloch: Right, protest is a large part of being gay.

00:56:19

Levi Cullifer: that's the, that I, I mean, I for history, I that's why, that's why I focus on or try to study. So, I think I'm kind of want to switch gears to family life, so you're that sphere of your life and the first question, I would like to ask, and might be thought provoking-- How do you define family?

00:57:07

Robert Bloch: So, I thought about this often, family can be both your chosen and not chosen family so chosen or family can be kin and blood, but it could also be so friends can be family. You know if you if you have a favorite restaurant or bar or like hang out that's family. Um family isn't just you know mom and dad and grandpa and aunt and uncle, family extends like, in my mind way beyond that, certainly in the gay community. I am a gay person who thinks of the Rainbow family, you know if if somebody comes out and I'll say, "welcome to the Rainbow family" because, like that's what I think of it as, and I know you know, like 00:58:00any family there's infighting but I really truly believe that all people all the letters in the alphabet that are part of LGBTQIA+ it's a family. Um so with that being said you know I mean there are different levels of family, you know I talk about my family, you know my parents and my sister and my. and my son, but then there's my family who are my friends there's family like I consider Bastille a family in a certain extent. I consider you know I think that's why I am gladly you know getting involved in Soulard Pride and organizing because I am helping family, I'm helping the community, that's very important to me.

00:58:58

Levi Cullifer: I'm. So, within your, I guess your adoptive family, what was, how 00:59:00was it like growing up in that. And you could also I guess you know go into like you know your realization of gayness or I kind of how, how did that play in with your with your growing up?

00:59:36

Robert Bloch: So. I, I know, like from an early age, I remember feeling different. I'm like even like a five or six you know, like, I had to change around other boys, I felt weird about it. Um and I remember when a male adult or 01:00:00like my dad would say well it's not a big deal you all the same equipment and then my mind I'm like thinking that doesn't really make sense to me because, like I wasn't only was like not only worried about like being looked at, but like I had this like curiosity about it. I just remember it being there like I'm you know I'm not supposed to be thinking about boys, but I am thinking about boys. Um, and you know, I don't I just I think of different like okay so different like little pieces from my childhood like, no, I would play with my sister's dolls like more as like entertaining her, but like it was like fun to play with them and, like dress them in different clothes that was fun and like my dad discouraged that obviously for like what like walking around my mom's 01:01:00high heels, and like looking at our makeup and being like "what is all this, this looks fun." Um so it's like you know a lot of those really cornerstone moments, and a lot of gay men talk about, like I had that um and I wasn't encouraged to explore it, it was like that needed to be shut down right away because that's not what boys do.

01:01:31

Levi Cullifer: Um, so then going through your, you know, early years or past this, how was, how was the idea of gayness treated in your family, not, doesn't have to be specifically around you but in like just public or in the, yeah you know, yeah.

01:01:56

Robert Bloch: So I remember like if we would be driving through like U City and 01:02:00there were you know or somewhere Central West End and we'd see two gay people, two men or two women kissing or holding hands my dad would be like "eye yai yai" you know something like that, or like you know my parents would say things like "oh that lady over there looks like a dyke" and like use words like that, and you know it's just I think espousing the idea that being gay there's something wrong with it. Um, and like I don't want to paint them as being, they're not, I wouldn't say there are homophobic, they have homophobic tendencies, but like I mean my mom has a lot of gay friends like I joke with I joke with her that I'm like "you're a fag hag" like I joke. [both laugh] Like a lot of her friends from high school ended up being gay and I'm like mom you know what that means, um you 01:03:00know that you have all these gay friends you're comfortable with gay people. My, one of my friends said this it's like you know my mom, about my mom, that she's very comfortable with gay people as long as her son's not gay, so you know there's that, I think she's growing to understand it more but um. I mean when I finally told them about it, I, you know, they were loving, and they were open they didn't say like "I'm never going to talk to you again" they didn't shun me. I'm, I'm sure that why don't know, but if I would have come out earlier, you know they might have said like "oh, well, are you sure, maybe it's a phase and--." But I don't know like maybe it would have been easier or maybe they 01:04:00would have been more accepting if it was earlier, I don't know. But I just, I do know that based on like when I was coming of age and like just having so many micro messages that being gay was something shameful and bad that, then I internalize that feeling of it being shameful and bad. And so I would get scared when I was around a gay person because I'm like "they're gonna find out" and I mean throughout high school and college, I had people asking, are you gay because you, you know you like theater and you do this and It was like it almost became like a point to like prove people wrong. Like so many people are like my best friend from high school is like people would come up to them daily and ask them if I was gay, it was like this thing it's like why the hell that people care so much if I'm gay, like what does it matter. And it's like my rebelliousness was like "I'm going to prove to you that I'm not gay" but it's 01:05:00like so what, what if I would have been like "yeah I'm gay and what the Fuck is wrong with you asking all the time Like do you wanna are you like--" if like to the other guys who like were to be homophobic "like obviously you're thinking about it a little too much like do you want to go fool around like what's up?" So you know it's it's taken me a while, but like I feel like now I'm in a space where like I am embracing fully embracing myself with who I am; realizing that the pain and the the shame and the like discuss somewhat that goes along with it is like projected onto us from society, from our parents, from other people school and you know, we have, we have to actively work past it.

01:06:01

Levi Cullifer: Um, growing up do you remember seeing any queerness in the media 01:06:00or anything like that?

01:06:10

Robert Bloch: So yeah, I remember when Ellen came out. I remember when George Michael came out. Um I remember reading about, finding out when Freddie Mercury had AIDS and I remember thinking to myself, like for like a short while I remember like I like their music, but now I can't like their music, because I, if I liked their music, and that's going to mean I'm gay, but I am gay it was like a complicated thing. I didn't want to like anything that was gay or had gay associations, but like I mean come on, I was I, one of the first CDs I bought was Annie Lennox and Madonna, so like at the age of like eight I got Madonna's um, what was it-- when, when I was like 8 or 9 when like a Prayer came out I 01:07:00bought that cassette tape my parents wouldn't let me listen to it because, not because of the gay thing just because they're like oh it's Madonna and she had that controversial video with Pepsi, and so I would listen to it my grandfather's car and I listened to it, like all the time. um, so I think for me, like I remember, I remember moments in media so like I'd watch Real World, Real World was kind of my escape into like, I really fixate on the gay characters like find them really interesting. You know, I go to my grandfather's house and watch cable so I'd watch MTV and I watched other movies that had gay characters in it, and I was really fascinated; um like I felt, I noticed that I felt differently every time there was a gay storyline or a gay character it like 01:08:00hit me in a way that like I can't really describe it, it was like I wanted to be in that world to, safely. Um I saw it as like this is like a fantasy world that, like, I want to be a part of because it is it looks it I know that's where I belong. Um but yeah in music music like I said was an outlet to, you know?

01:08:37

Levi Cullifer: You kept bringing up your grandpa and actually doing things that your parents wouldn't let you do-- so as of right now, this seems more clear, but so was going to your grandfather's like a like a haven kind of thing was he more accepting of these ideas or--?

01:09:00

Robert Bloch: He just he didn't ask questions you know, like I had it's funny I 01:09:00remember I'd sit there, and I draw like pictures of girls and, like in different color dresses and different hair and stuff and I post them around us kitchen and he didn't care. Like he wasn't like "that's, that's, you're doing something gay" or like if my sister and I were over there and I would play with her dolls he didn't care, if I was watching certain shows on TV he didn't care. Um and I don't I don't know I you know I don't know if it just wasn't he wasn't really paying attention, or I probably he probably didn't care. And so I just felt like yeah there's like I could just be free, you know a part of it was he was older, and I could just go in the other room and watch whatever I wanted, but. You know, watch My So-Called Life or watch whatever music video or watch whatever 01:10:00show that, like, I was watching at my parents' house my parents might be like, "why are you watching that?"

01:10:10

Levi Cullifer: Okay. Um I guess going going on, can you--. I don't know what order we should do that in, either I guess talk about your first marriage and how that came to be.

01:10:32

Robert Bloch: So, my ex-wife and I were very, very good friends in college and she was a year ahead of me. So, she was from New York, so we still kept in touch after college, I moved to Massachusetts and um you know I go visit her in New York, she come visit me, but it was as friends, and I think it was like a couple 01:11:00years later I was about to move back to St. Louis after being in New England for like three years, and I feel like our relationship kind of like jumped. Um and for me, I know I was scared of, I was still scared of just admitting like admitting who I was. Like up until that point, I didn't really like I kind of sorta had girlfriends like not, not really like it not, not anything substantial. Never, never had had any sexual encounter, like I just shut the door on that. Um so I didn't experiment with girls or boys was just like no beyond like kissing and like groping and whatever so. And I'll talk about it and I'm open about it, but like literally my first sexual encounter was with my ex-wife. And that was after I had just gone back from Israel, so I was already 01:12:00in my head convinced that I need to live a hetero-normative life, so I had already like confined myself and convince myself that because this is there and it works, then that's fine. [pause] Even though I still knew I was gay.

01:12:32

Levi Cullifer: Okay, so um can you talk a little bit about like when you guys married when you had your child and then, I guess when the idea of coming out kind of started.

01:12:55

Robert Bloch: So, we got married it was kind of a it was a weird situation. I'll 01:13:00just say this um she wanted a green card and was pushing marriage which I actually remember she had written me this letter and I read it one of the times I was, I was on my way to Israel, and she was, you know, knowing kind of what I was going through like this, like new religious identity. And I hate to say it, like taking advantage of it, and she, you know, was cementing in my mind like "well we're good friends, so why don't we get married anyway, you know it's gonna work um." So the relationship just ramped up, and ramped up, and ramped up but I didn't, I kept the marriage part a secret from my parents, they were not thrilled about it and there are a lot of reasons why but they, because of that, 01:14:00we got married at City Hall in 2008 and then she moved back here and was here for a few months, um got pregnant, on purpose, um I can I mean that's just what happened and then told me, she was going to come back here and then never did and then just stay in New York, and so, basically, I had no choice but to go to New York. And so that happened, I was in New York for from like 2010 to 2014 and then. Ahh, see I and I'm like trying to figure out like it's, not that I don't like talking about is just like it's very it's very dramatic.

01:14:57

Levi Cullifer: I understand

01:14:58

Robert Bloch: -- are allowed to say our marriage fell apart and it ended in a 01:15:00way that it shouldn't have ended, ended where she and her family were trying to completely push me out so that I wouldn't be in my son's life at all, and I don't know what the point of that was but. The whole circumstances of even our marriage, but definitely how our marriage ended is very traumatic. And so, like I basically had no choice but to come back here like I was, I was, I didn't even really know what was going on my parents bought me a plane ticket and like brought me back here, because things were so crazy.

01:15:43

Levi Cullifer: Yeah.

01:15:46

Robert Bloch: And you know I forgive her and her family for the things they did, you know I can't be bitter about it, and for my son's sake, I have to just move ahead. But I think, because the marriage ended so badly, I was just like you 01:16:00know what, it is time to just own who I am so right after that I started telling people I was, bisexual and then maybe in like four months, I was like, I'm gay.

01:16:20

Levi Cullifer: Okay, so what, what do you think, what do you think happened to like make you actually except, I guess, except, or finally come out publicly?

01:16:38

Robert Bloch: So, it was I mean it was it was a process of a few months, but like I remember it was there was an new year's or a party, where I like had this epiphany and I may or may not have been on some substances. But I had a major epiphany where I was like, realize, I like I saw my life if I wouldn't have 01:17:00married Claire and I realized I should have just been gay from the beginning, like this is what not cause the issues, but like she was able to prey on me and I became a victim, because I wasn't owning up to who I was, I need to own up to, who I am so I'm just like done.

01:17:26

Levi Cullifer: Okay.

01:17:27

Robert Bloch: And I feel like ever since that moment, like I've gained this power that like you know I've gained-- and a friend of mine told me he's like he noticed that he's like "it's not that you're like angry, but you have this before you were kind of like you've always been extroverted person, but like you're always somewhat like, more like, quiet not forceful. Since you've come out like it's like you've the other half of yourself is like it's like--" there 01:18:00was a part of my body that was missing that like got filled in. If that makes any sense.

01:18:09

Levi Cullifer: No, definitely, that's how a lot of people have explained it from what I've heard. So, can you tell me anything about your son?

01:18:23

Robert Bloch: So, he is, he's in sixth grade he is about to be taller than me. He's very, right now he says he likes ELA, which is not surprising. He likes writing, he's on his newspaper staff at school. He likes sports, which is not for me, likes soccer, he likes baseball, he likes watching sports, he likes talking about sports, he likes the rules of sports um. He knows all the different teams of Premier League Soccer he knows all the different baseball teams um and I wonder if like he has some Asperger's because, like he has this 01:19:00like insane memory, he knows the entire subway system, he knows all the highway exits in St. Louis he has a memorized.

01:19:12

Levi Cullifer: Oh wow.

01:19:14

Robert Bloch: He knows, you know in New York from the subway if we get off that this train, we can get on this stop and then get on this train and that will take us to this stop and then we'll get out and that's like he knows he knows he's like a human map. [Levi laughs] It's crazy, and then he likes, he likes games, he likes video games, he likes board games, you know when he comes into town here like we'll play Monopoly or Scrabble; he's very rule oriented, like you have to follow the rules like, this is the rule, you have to follow it.

01:19:53

Levi Cullifer: I guess that's not a bad quality at all.

01:19:57

Robert Bloch: No, no. He's very, he can be very bossy. He's very, he can be very 01:20:00stubborn um but you know he is awesome he's also like he understands world issues and adult issues in a way that like-- his very mature outlook like he can explain to you, like when, when I was in New York, I hung out with a friend and my mom was there and we're all talking about politics and Raj was actually like involved in the conversation was saying things that you know, a college student would say. Like so he has a grasp of things it's very mature.

01:20:36

Levi Cullifer: So does he primarily live in New York then?

01:20:39

Robert Bloch: He does. He lives with his mom primarily.

01:20:43

Levi Cullifer: um and have you had like a conversation about-- be, like you being gay or is that just been, it's just been there?

01:20:58

Robert Bloch: We've had conversations about it, he does not like that I'm gay. 01:21:00I'm his grandmother is very homophobic in New York. His mom and their family are from Trinidad from the West Indies and Western culture can be very homophobic. His mom is very open, like she like for Father's Day a couple years ago she got me some rainbow socks like she doesn't care. I mean, and people am, and I tell people we were best friends in college she knew, like there's no way she didn't know. Um, grandma doesn't really like it, you know, he says things to me like "gay people are discussing" you know, "I'm opposed you marrying Bob" I said "well is it because it's Bob or is it because it's--" I think there are a myriad of issues and A he's told me I'm not allowed to be with anybody, I'm not going to be with his mother I can't be with anybody we both have to be alone; he doesn't like that I'm with a man. Although I'm pretty certain if I were heterosexual or bisexual or some closer variant and with a woman, you'd have a 01:22:00problem with that too. It would just be that it's somebody else.

01:22:10

Levi Cullifer: mm hmm.

01:22:11

Robert Bloch: But I think the gay adds to it. I notice, I'm not saying he's gay, but I noticed though that he has some discomfort and the same strings that I had at his age. We're just in a conversation "dad I'm not gay like you" I'm like "I was, I'm not even talking about that."

01:22:31

Levi Cullifer: Yeah.

01:22:32

Robert Bloch: And like Bob notices it too, he'll just bring it up out of the blue, "I'm not gay" "no. okay, nobody said you're gay Raj. I just want you to be yourself."

01:22:41

Levi Cullifer: mm hmm.

01:22:42

Robert Bloch: um, so I-- and I noticed those things. I noticed, so you know, I wonder, and I hope if he in fact is queer like myself, that we, that brings us closer rather than him for trying to cover it up.

01:23:01

Levi Cullifer: Yeah, and so he comes down and visits to St. Louis that's what I, [Bobby nods head] OK. [Bobby coughs] Let's switch, I guess, to how you met Bob and how that has progressed.

01:23:23

Robert Bloch: So, I met him actually, at Bastille. um we were both there when we shouldn't have been there. I, earlier in the day, had been running the Cupid Underwear Run. It was February 11, which is now our anniversary, Saturday. And he was at the Cajun cook off in Soulard. He ended up at Bastille, he was supposed to be working that day, but didn't so we ended up a Bastille with a bunch of his college friends and he's very comfortable with who's, who I've gotten to know, and I was there with my friends. And I'll never, I'll, there 01:24:00used to be these booths in the front of Bastille and he sat down next to me and I, I remember thinking to myself like "ugh, like who is this guy talking to me," and then I went outside to patio and he came and and there's like a voice, how I describe it to people, there's like a voice like, someone behind me saying "talk to him, give them give them a chance to, talk to them, give them a chance." And I remember like I'm big into like metaphysical stuff like moon and stuff like that, like there's something funky going on with the moon that night, like things aligning ah I'll just say like after the after that night like we spent the first 48 hours together.

01:24:45

Levi Cullifer: Oh wow.

01:24:45

Robert Bloch: Like. And I felt like I had known him for years, like, I feel felt like I was meeting an old friend and I couldn't really explain it. And we're very different we have very different circumstances that we grew up on, you know 01:25:00he came out early, I came out later, I grew up way more economically privilege, you know I grew up in St. Louis, he grew up in a small town outside St., and so like we have very different backgrounds, but like we complement each other in a lot of ways. Um, you know, things that I'm good at, he may not be good at, things he's good at I'm not good at um you know we can calm each other down, we can keep each other sane, you know, like any couple sometimes we've little spats but the end of the day we love each other so.

01:25:49

Levi Cullifer: So, when did you all get married?

01:25:54

Robert Bloch: So, we are not officially married yet.

01:25:56

Levi Cullifer: Okay. Oh, I remember that. I remember that yeah yeah. ok

01:26:02

Robert Bloch: We were going to get married and, and then things kept happening, like for, I don't know I don't remember what 2019 was something, something, some family thing and then 2020 was a pandemic, and then 2021 people were recovering from the pandemic which then we were like okay we're gonna get married this year--

01:26:21

Levi Cullifer: Okay

01:26:22

Robert Bloch: --come hell or high water.

01:26:24

Levi Cullifer: So, I guess, then what led to the decision of--

01:26:29

Robert Bloch: --Getting got married?

01:26:31

Robert Bloch: Just that I think both of us know that, well from his perspective if he weren't with me, he would just be alone, and for me like there's no one else I'd rather spend my time with day to day like. You know I realize, in you know he's older than me by 14 years and like, I realized that like yeah I could be with somebody closer to my age or somebody who's more like me, but I don't 01:27:00know like I just--. I, he is my person like I don't feel that you know our differences or that his age matters.

01:27:24

Levi Cullifer: So, then, I think you had mentioned beforehand that you started to become more involved in the gay community through him.

01:27:38

Robert Bloch: Well, I'll say this, before I met him I started to become involved because I I'm shortly after coming out of I joined the Gateway Men's Chorus where I met a lot of friends and then I talked about it before when I went to Galan in Denver, and that you know people in St who you know, happen to be gay but also love to sing, and that really was a breakthrough for me. I think that's 01:28:00when I really felt a true comfort with who I was um. But yeah, it was it's really through him that I've gotten to know different people and different like different leaders and different people who are in different like, involved in different levels of gay culture in St. Louis um. You know, like our friend Lauren who used to do makeup for all the drag gueens and is the only you know straight female to be miss or Mister whatever it is Miss Gay Pride or whatever, she was crowned Miss Gay Pride, she's the only heterosexual ever to have that title just because she's so involved. You know, getting to know Luann and getting to know, you know just just various people who are you know either involved in like political things are involved with Doorways, or involved with 01:29:00um, you know, one of our, one of our good friends who moved to Minneapolis he used to be executive director of St. Louis Effort for AIDS. Another good friend of ours, who moved away used to be the head fundraiser for the Opera in St. Louis. It's like through all these different people I have all these different connections like Oh, you know that person Oh, they know this person, and yada yada.

01:29:26

Levi Cullifer: Yeah so, can you, can you talk a little bit I guess about some of the organization's you were involved with yeah.

01:29:37

Robert Bloch: Yeah so um, I guess, what was it, a Gateway Men's Chorus was one that I used to be involved with um. Band Together by proxy because our friend Gary is the head of it, I've never been in their concerts, but you know I attend 01:30:00their concerts I support them, Bob marches with them and participates with them so by proxy you know. Other, other things I'm involved in a when I was a CPBA I lead the gay, so I started and lead the Gay Straight Alliance chapter there for kids. I mean being involved in Soulard Pride, that just kind of happened.

01:30:36

Levi Cullifer: Which we'll talk a little bit more about that.

01:30:39

Robert Bloch: yeah.

01:30:41

Levi Cullifer: You mentioned Doorways.

01:30:43

Robert Bloch: So I so my mom is a volunteer with Doorways she's a lawyer and so she does legal advocacy with them and so she knows um, oh who is it, Gary mud, who is also a friend of ours. You know, because Bob had involvement with them as 01:31:00well, I, again, I don't have direct involvement necessarily but like with my mom and Bob, I guess. I'm trying to think of other organizations, I know they're there. I guess, this is kind of, well, I guess it it fits um when I first moved back to St. Louis my friend at a bar in Cherokee street that was very those queer space and they used to have burlesque bingo and so sometimes I'd do drag, and help hosted my friend dressing up as a Jewish grandma. It's just fun.

01:31:55

Levi Cullifer: Do you remember what the name of it was?

01:31:57

Robert Bloch: The burlesque Bingo I don't, I don't think it had a name. it was 01:32:00just burlesque bingo.

01:32:03

Levi Cullifer: The bar?

01:32:04

Robert Bloch: Oh, the bar, the bar was Art bar.

01:32:07

Levi Cullifer: Okay, art like is A-R-T.

01:32:10

Robert Bloch: A-R-T yeah.

01:32:12

Levi Cullifer: Okay um. I guess that can lead us into how you and Bob got involved with Soulard Pride and Krewe of Vices and Virtues.

01:32:29

Robert Bloch: Yeah, oh some other things popped in my head sorry. I, I'm because I'm thinking of when I marched like I always march in the parade and I always try to be part of like the various prides, the caravan or whatever. Um so I'm like "who did I used to march with" well, so I for a while I sang with Pilgrim Church, which was not specifically, not a queer church, but they had people 01:33:00there who were queer it was a UCC church, and so I remember I marched representing them one year in the Pride parade because I sang in their choir. I also sang for a while, was St. Stanislaus, which is a queer firming church. So, I'm just like thinking of like little things that I've done.

01:33:22

Levi Cullifer: Yeah.

01:33:24

Robert Bloch: So, I think what, It was kind of a no brainer for me to get involved in Soulard Pride. And it was like a happy accident, Luann came to me in January, and says she needed help with something and asked basically, that would take on represents a lot of pride in Mardi Gras which I was like okay not really thinking about like it's like a huge thing to take on one like I don't know if I have the time. But like I got frustrated because, like when I do something I wanted to be like amazing and have like hundreds of people there, like got like 01:34:0010 people, maybe I think I started with like 40 people and then people dwindled off. And it's fine because we had like a small group of people, but like we were like well represented and people enjoy like seeing our representation and it was just nice to be in charge of something that I feel like was directly giving back to the Community and then so. Then that's how I got involved in helping the plan for Soulard Pride like proper, because I realized by taking on, helping to plan, I think this, this was the first time I had really like taken on like a big role and planning something that had to do with Gay Pride like I've always the past few years, participated in it and had a presence, but never really a planning role and I've always wanted to get more involved as a planning role. Before I 01:35:00moved in New York, this is like a segue into this I my a lot of my participation and leadership was in the Jewish community um and involved in a lot of that was like the center of my focus, and so I think now you know my focus is the gay community so I'm taking a lot of that leadership and applying it there. And so, for me, like I'm excited about being involved in Soulard Pride because well A, I'm not doing it by myself, but B, like we have the potential to make it like a really awesome event, and what I really enjoyed about Mardi Gras was that I started, you know networking with different people in the Community, who I didn't necessarily know like Venus O'Hara or Zach who is newer, newer drag queen on the scene and she walked with us, and she just messaged me and said, "I want to be involved in Soulard Pride dah da da, and so I love that, I love um and 01:36:00actually the last show I was out of hers at RPM, her boyfriend proposed to her. [unknown] Yeah and I like I love being at that facet of the Community where I'm like helping new drag Queens or like you know, involving other people who are you know, maybe younger queer kids or, or maybe an older gay woman who just came out, you know after 50 years of marriage to a man, like whatever, like you meet people. And you get to hear people's stories and that's what I've always enjoyed about having a presence at prides is meeting those people and hearing their stories and learning from them.

01:36:53

Levi Cullifer: um so, um pride events um, can you remember what your first pride 01:37:00festival was?

01:37:06

Robert Bloch: I do, I was not out yet.

01:37:11

Levi Cullifer: Okay

01:37:12

Robert Bloch: When I was in New York, I helped I was a, I don't really know what you call, I guess, a field organizer a Community organizer with the Obama campaign. So, I ended up taking on, that was actually not only my first participation and private my first leadership within pride.

01:37:35

Levi Cullifer: Your very first one?

01:37:37

Robert Bloch: My very first one. Um where, and that was like I-- I guess it was like thrilling and like that's where it was like the beginning of my like I don't really care if people think I'm gay. Um you know, I'm going to like hide under the guise of being an ally, but at the same time, like have this feeling 01:38:00of like I'm there um I remember the first Pride parade 2012, New York City and I look at those pictures and I still remember the feeling I had, you know, obviously wasn't out but I had this feeling like there's a moment during the parade we cross Christopher Street, we were in front of Stonewall, and there are so many people, gay marriage had just passed in New York, it wasn't a national thing yet. And just there's this feeling of solidarity it did it like I just feel like it does it doesn't even matter if I'm proclaiming to be gay or not. I'm part of this Community, and it was this feeling of belonging, like, I felt like a rock star like people were like you know blowing kisses and I was hugging people, and I was "straight," but I was like part of this family, and it felt amazing.

01:39:07

Levi Cullifer: Um, so have you participated in every pride since that one or has [Bobby nods] yes. So, can you tell me, um I guess when, I guess you switched over to St. Louis prides rather than, can you tell me about that?

01:39:35

Robert Bloch: Yeah, so well in 2019 actually Bob and I went to World Pride New York, and that was like just indescribable um but yeah other than that I've been in the St. Louis prides and obviously it's not the same volume or capacity but um I do remember the first pride the first pride that I was actually like out in 01:40:00was here and just having that same feeling of like euphoria and belonging. You know, like here I am.

01:40:11

Levi Cullifer: mm hmm. um what was the, I guess you had said one of the big differences with like the volume of people was there anything else that you might have noticed or seen or felt between like a New York pride and a St. Louis pride?

01:40:37

Robert Bloch: I mean, so I mean not as many floats. Um, I know a lot of people say this one is corporate the one in New York is corporate to. That's not really that much different, you might I well, I mean in New York, you might run into like celebrities like I met George Takei at, in one of the prides and he was 01:41:00dressed in a little boy scout uniform and they gave him an Obama pin and he just very gracious awesome person like I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not, that's not going to happen here. I mean you know, one of the prides here I met Steve Grand like I don't I don't care like, I don't care about that stuff, I don't care about you know star fucking and stuff like if you happen to see a celebrity you knew, like who cares stop making a point of it. um I mean not really, I mean yeah I mean yeah a difference in like the number of people and, like--. But I mean no not really, like it's it's to me like it's still even though they're less people are not as many floats you're not gonna like to see known personalities like it's still family.

01:41:58

Levi Cullifer: Okay

01:42:00

Robert Bloch: A different version of family or on a different scale.

01:42:07

Levi Cullifer: and I guess, can you tell me what makes, what makes Soulard Pride different than others in the city?

01:42:21

Robert Bloch: So I think what makes Soulard Pride different is it stills very grassroots, in that you know it's just the bunch of us who live in Soulard or live in Soulard adjacent who are throwing on her ideas and making it happen it's still growing. You know what started a few years ago as like this golf car parade and then last year It was like Luann was like "this is like twice as big as it has been before," like it was wrapped around like, I was in front with 01:43:00Luann and we still saw like It was wrapping around like a giant snake, like it was, like it was kind of cool to see that this little thing that started is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger um and then to see that, like type of support like people applauding us and cheering and kids out. I really feel that Soulard is, I think of it as like the people's Gay Pride parade where it's like everybody in anybody can be part of it, and I know like that's to an extent with the other prides but, like, I really feel because we're still so, you know, we're not at all corporate, we're not at all, we're like we're only it's like purely about a celebration of living, of gay people, of queer people, so you 01:44:00know it drag queens. and drag kings, and ladies of perpetual indulgence, and you know leather guys, and people of different ages and different colors you know you know you can have a golf cart and ride around, last year I think we'd some drag queens like get out and they were walking arm and then like you know, this year the ideas at the end we're going to have a big drag show and dance party so it's just like. It feel like what separates it is, A; it's not as big so it may not draw the same presence as the other prizes tower grove or as St. Louis pride, or even as the caravan because the caravan goes over more parts of the city, but even though it's just in Soulard. um. I mean last year, there was like 01:45:00you couldn't even there's so many people outside like best feel specifically like you couldn't even see the bricks on the building um so I feel like it's growing in presence like even if people don't live in Soulard, like they're going to come either participate in it, or be on the sidelines cheering because they've heard about it. So to me, like, I think because it's still very close to the grassroots level and it's like the the feeling of like it's everybody's thing you know it doesn't belong to anybody it belongs to all of us like that's that I think is really cool like it's still, it's still this idea that we're 01:46:00celebrating queerness in all of its different beautiful forms. You know it's not just about guys with muscles like taking their shirts off or like, like there's no, there's no definition, you know if you're queer or if you're queer-adjacent or if you love queerness come and celebrate with us we're celebrating clearness it's like purely what it is.

01:46:37

Levi Cullifer: Yeah

01:46:38

Robert Bloch: And that's why I love being part of it.

01:46:40

Levi Cullifer: So, do you see any--. What do you foresee for Soulard Pride? I know if I asked Luann that, that might be like a good like 30 minute answer but.

01:47:01

Robert Bloch: I mean I just see it continuing to grow in. Maybe you know next year and a couple years, like every bar in Soulard will be involved, like kind of like a Mardi Gras situation, but like gay Mardi Gras, where it's not necessarily we're walking down Broadway, but like maybe the parade route gets even bigger and like we're going through like you know all the adjacent neighborhoods and then coming back to Soulard, like I know it's Soulard but you know, it just involving all of Soulard. And having it be like having a be a big street party, maybe, instead of shutting down one street we shut down multiple streets like I said, like Mardi Gras people are just celebrating being queer, being gay, being trans in the street. You know, maybe there's a like maybe we 01:48:00get like, maybe we have, maybe we have, we have a drag show maybe there are multiple stages, where there's like music performance. I don't, I don't know, like to me, like I know the group of people were planning it and it's a very, very good strong group of people who can make a lot of things happen so like, you know if we if we're like we want this to be X, Y, or Z like that's what it will turn into and kind of you know, as long as it's the ideas it's oh it's you know it's for the Community it's for celebrating queerness and everybody's invited to it, that's cool.

01:48:42

Levi Cullifer: That's, yeah, that sounds great. So, I guess, we can now switch over to a closing reflections. Um so, what would you say is the current state of 01:49:00the St. Louis LGBTQ community?

01:49:10

Robert Bloch: I feel like it's fractured but slowly, maybe coming together um they're there I've seen a lot of infighting which I don't like you know. And, but because there's so many different prides and now I think because I'm involved in Soulard we talked about having represent not only having representation at the different prides like even if we're not, like if even, if we don't have a booth at St. Charles probably like going out like a few of us going there, and like walking around with our Soulard Pride shirts and supporting them like because the thing is, we need to support each other or promoting each other's events like that's what's going to bring about a sense of solidarity. Instead of, instead of things being fractured and even if you don't 01:50:00live in Soulard, even if you live across the river, like come to Soulard Pride, it's your pride to.

01:50:15

Levi Cullifer: um what are some of the hopes or I guess predictions you have for the future? And that could be either with prides, or with the Community or with you know St. Louis in general, or even, you know as we talked a little bit about education and what you thought about that.

01:50:38

Robert Bloch: I think my ideas about all those things kind of go together and I don't want to sound cliche or like, you know, water this thought down, but I really believe in intersection of solidarity. That, even if you're not gay, or not trans, or not black, or not Muslim, or whatever identity that's marginalized 01:51:00like all of our oppression intersects. And we need to look out for each other's so like in the gay community specifically there's no room for transphobia there's no room for racism. That stuff has to go like or you know this militant group not here but nationally is militant group of lesbians, who don't think trans women are real women, no, we don't have time for that, because there are people out there, that was dead and we need to fight against, you know, the those forces, those cold republican not even republican like cold minded, really conservative, religious based phenomenon, and ideology that's going on, we, we need to have intersection of solidarity to fight against it, and I believe 01:52:00strongly. And I'll say this, my friend Elizabeth who works at the Brown School believes strongly in fighting back through marginalized people getting involved every level of leadership in in politics and school boards, we need to just flood these places in small towns in big cities we need marginalized reputation representation and we need to have intersectional solidarity if we're really going to combat this crap that's happening and coming down the pipeline.

01:52:39

Levi Cullifer: Yeah, and do you foresee that even happening within, with even like St. Louis?

01:52:48

Robert Bloch: I hope, yeah, I hope is that, you know, we can put the bickering aside and work together toward that common goal of eradicating bigotry.

01:53:12

Levi Cullifer: Um, looking back on your life, can you tell me what you might, you may or be proudest of?

01:53:28

Robert Bloch: um aside from the pros-- from the process of having my son come into this world um. I guess I'm proudest of thinking about all of the various students along the way, who I may have positively shaped their life and possibly changed trajectory in a positive direction of where their life has gone. That 01:54:00you know I got into education, for that reason of social justice and for the reason of empowering others often who are marginalized to use their voice and make changes within their local, national, or global community.

01:54:29

Levi Cullifer: Um, I'm also looking at my question. What could be, and this have to be just one, what lessons would you like to pass down to future generations make it, and they could be anything.

01:54:52

Robert Bloch: That at the end of the day, we're all human beings. That we need to listen to and lean on each other in spite of differences, even if their 01:55:00ideological differences, we need to remember that we're all human beings. Human beings can make mistakes and human beings can grow and learn from each other from listening to stories I don't remember where it was, I was reading about it, maybe Sweden, there's a human library where instead of checking out books you basically check out a person's story and sit with them and listen to their story. Like, like we're talking.

01:55:39

Levi Cullifer: Oh wow.

01:55:40

Robert Bloch: Yeah, I'm looking up to see where it is, but like I mean that kind of idea like we need to stop being so judgmental and harsh to each other. We need to remember that integrity and compassion are more important than power and 01:56:00control. I guess that's, that's my main advice.

01:56:18

Levi Cullifer: Okay, um. I guess the last thing is there anything else you would like to say that you haven't, or I haven't mentioned or anything I should have asked?

01:56:37

Robert Bloch: I mean I can't think of anything I'm just that you know my hope, my wish is that for anybody out there who's struggling to live their true authentic life that they're able to be empowered to undo those shackles and 01:57:00truly live it live them live their life as themselves authentically.

01:57:11

Levi Cullifer: Okay. Well, I would like to thank you for sitting down with me and interviewing and I will--