Charles White Interview by Kenny Miller

Charles White Interview Transcript

Interviewer: Kenny Miller

Interviewee: Charles White

Interview Date: 04/20/2022

Location: Normandy, MO/ via Zoom

Length: Approximately 90 minutes

KM: Hello, my name is Kenny Miller, um it is April 20th 2022 and I am here conducting an interview for my LGBTQ+ oral history class at the University of Missouri St Louis. And-uh, would you like to state your name and spell it for us?

CW: Yes, my name is Charles White, that is spelled C H A R L E S and White, W H I T E, like the color.

KM: This is here just to remind you that you are being recorded and there is a release form to sign for the M- the Missouri State Historical Society.

KM: Well, to get into it, how old, are you?

CW: I am 25 years old.

KM: And where were you born?

CW: I was born and raised right here in St Louis so I haven't gone anywhere-- 00:01:00nothing. Unfortunately.

KM: So how long have you lived in the, in, you know, or have you been in the city all your life? Have you been more in the county, or has there been one certain area you've been in?

CW: So when, when growi- when I was growing up, I actually used to live over here in Normandy, initially, and then we moved from this area to St Louis like city, like the downtown area. And I lived there for like, up until I graduated high school and a little bit of college. And then eventually we moved back over here in Normandy, um I think when I was like a sophomore at Community college and um, then eventually, I moved out of my parents house and now I stay in Normandy on the dorms currently. So yeah, its just kind of like a little back 00:02:00and-- back and forth a little bit it feels like.

KM: Mmhm. Do you know how many times you've moved homes?

CW: How do I know how many times?

KM: No, I said, "Do you know how many times?"

CW: Um, I don't know if we moved when I was like, younger, like a baby. So I only remember about like age four and on up, so like we've moved 1, 2, 3, 4 times. So in my life, so we've only moved four times.

KM: I guess we'll kind of get into your family here, do you have any siblings?

CW: Yes, I have three siblings I have um, I have actually, technically, I have four siblings now. And I-I-I'll explain the fourth one. So technically I have my two sisters who live with my mom. And then I have a brother who he was-- we have 00:03:00the same dad, but a different mom. And he stays with his mom and then I also have my other sister, who is the same age as me, because my mom just got married to my step dad and so now we're like family, like- like- like, we're like related to that point. The two siblings they was with my mom's previous boyfriend so like it's not the current boyfriend, or current husband. And yeah so I have four siblings.

KM: So did you grow up as both your parents or?

CW: I grew up-- my mom has told me a little bit that when I was younger like when I was like a baby like my, my biological father was with us for a while. But then I can't really remember, because like when I started being able to 00:04:00recall my memory, my mom and dad had already broken up so, and my mom was like dating some other person. So I-- my dad yeah, they, they weren't really together when I was growing up, so.

KM: Any kind of-- describe your family's dynamic. Is your mother kind of head of household or.. how are responsibilities kind of laid out there?

CW: So yeah when I was um, mainly growin' up and livin' with my moms, and a little bit before I had moved out my mom was basically head of household. She had to be because we had no like, like father who would be like head of the house so Mom had to take the reins and like, be in charge, and like kind of do everything, and try to like find a good stable job so she can support me when I 00:05:00was her only child at the time. And then eventually like support my two other sisters when they were born and so--um yeah she was just kind of like doing everything she could to raise us as best she can, kind of on her own because um, yeah there was no one really helping her in the family. Not too too much. Sometimes we had a little bit of help in the family, but not everyone in the family, no.

KM: Were there any other family members, or maybe just adults in general who kind of took a lead role in helping raise you?

CW: Yeah, my my grandma. Unfortunately she's passed away now, but my grandma um, at the time um, she- she was like my second mom. I loved her house. I would always go to her house and I remember-- I remember watching boomerang, which is- is this television show where you can watch old school cartoons, and like I love 00:06:00old school cartoons like Pink Panther or like, Scooby Doo, like oldies stuff I used to like that, as a child. Still kind of like it, you know? [laughter]

KM: Um, what would you say your family's financial background is like?

CW: We poor. We are poor, I think, we still are, but we- we have a little bit more money than initially, so we're not as poor, but we're definitely low income. Yeah growing up, we were, just there's just always a struggle just-- But my mom did what she could to keep food and-- keep food in the house and do her best to like make sure that we were taken care of. And had like clothes on our backs and stuff like that, because it was hard as a single parent to like have to raise a child, you know. And there's not too many job opportunities that she 00:07:00had, because my mom didn't graduate high school so. She didn't have many jobs to pick from but she was doing her best to like pick something that would be able to support the family.

KM: So, growing up you were able to feel that financial background a lot?

CW: Yeah, yeah it's like a lot of trying to be conscious of things like try to keep lights off. Like if we don't really need lights on, don't keep one running for baths for too long, and if it got down to it, sometimes literally boiling hot water and throwing it into the bathtub because we did not have any hot water so. [pause] And a lot of ramen noodles, I remember ramen noodles. A lot of ramen noodles, that was my childhood. But yeah I- I like, even as a child it's just 00:08:00strange how I could tell that we needed to do the best we can do, like frugal.

KM: I guess we'll move on to kind of discussing your education. So I guess kind of as far back as you can remember did you go to any kindergarten or preschool programs or?

CW: I'm sorry, could you repeat that.

KM: So we're gonna move to discussing- - (Zoom connection cuts temporarily)

CW: I'm sorry you-- you're cutting out. Can you hear me? Kenneth? Hello? Is it me? Kenneth? Am I cutting out? Because on my screen it sounds like you're 00:09:00cutting out. Oh.

KM: Alright, so that happened.

CW: Okay, so I was just wondering, like if I was cutting out, I was like, "what's going on?"

KM: Might be both of us. The struggles of Zoom. But it's still recording so we'll try to get back on track.Okay, so to education. Do you remember attending a preschool program or did you start with kindergarten?

CW: I think yeah, yeah I remember pre-K, I remember preschool but it's very, it's a little hazy preschool. I do remember kindergarten but like preschool is like more hazy for me. And yeah kindergarten, my kindergarten school it was 00:10:00alright. Okay, it was okay, it wasn't the best kindergarten school around, but my mom did what she could to give me a kind of kindergarten program so I can get started with education. So yeah i'll say it was OK.

KM: So what were any problems with it if you can remember?

CW: I can't necessarily remember too much. I remember as a child not liking the food. So bad, so bad and I don't know like. I also-- I think, maybe it was more of a me thing, because like in kindergarten you have like nap time, but I would never be tired during nap time. But then I was, the teachers made me lay down at the very least. And I was just like okay, I'm not sleepy. Everybody else in class would be asleep, but I would be wide awake. And I did- I did, I had no idea why I had so-- and I didn't-- it's not like I was wanting to jump up and run around, I just wasn't tired.

KM: Hm.

CW: It was interesting, and I don't know. Yeah there was once he tried to like ( ) I'm like, I remember. I forget her name, but I just remember very vividly not liking her.

KM: Then going forward, so you said you remember a bit more about kindergarten in specifics or?

CW: Yeah, like maybe I don't remember so so much about kindergarten, but I remember kindergarten better than I remember pre K, because I can barely.

KM: Mmhm. We can just kind of discuss primary school in general.

CW: Okay.

KM: What all do you remember? Were there any teachers that kind of stuck out for you, at that time?

CW: Are we talking about like first through like eighth grade?

KM: Yeah, yeah.

CW: Okay okay. I remember, because I remember first grade I was still living 00:12:00over here in Normandy, and so I actually went to Lucas Crossing Elementary School. And I went up the-- I went to Lucas Crossing all the way from first grade to fifth grade before we had moved, and so I remember my teacher Mrs Clark. It was this nice lady. And I--[laughter] I was a good child I promise you, but i'm going to tell you this story. I was a good child, right? And she had this system to where like if you, um you know flips, like if we do if you're good in the little you have a stick by your name on it. And if you're like in an infraction they will be yellow and if you do another infraction it would be red, and then like you get a parent call home and stuff. I was trying to get Mrs. Clarks' attention so much, but she was still talking. And I was ( ), this is so bad.So I hit her as she was facing away from me, so like her back was towards 00:13:00me. And so I hit her on the butt. [laughter] With a little notebook paper be like, "Mrs. Clark!" [laughter] And I immediately went from green to red. I remember, Mrs. Clark because of that, and she was not happy with me after I did that. I remember also in first grade also starting to learn cursive writing and hating cursive writing, because it was so-- I was wondering what what would I use this for my life, and I mean I use cursive writing to do the signature, which I guess. I guess it's alright. But that's kind of like the standout teacher that I remember, for probably not good reasons. Second grade I remember, I had a teacher. I don't remember her name, but I remember liking her class a lot she was just very encouraging. I remember, like a lot of the teachers, that 00:14:00I had-- just throwing that out there, like they were pretty white. So I had a lot of just like white teachers, which isn't a bad thing. Its just like something that was predominantly, that I noticed like, in hindsight, like, I had a lot of. [pause] I can't really remember third or fourth grade all too well. I do remember like third and fourth grade, like I-- getting picked on. So maybe that's why I kind of blank out on third and fourth grade. Because I'm just like, the brain just doesn't even want to remember third and fourth grade. And I do remember fifth grade very vividly because I had a teacher, I think her name was, uh, Mrs. Jones? Mrs. Jones. And I think she was the first black teacher that I ever had. And she was pretty good. I enjoyed that class and, at the time of when 00:15:00I was in fifth grade, unfortunately 9/11 had happened so. In class like that was what we was, you know, talking about 9/11. I remember that, because that was the, 9/11 when we talked about it, literally a day after that is when my mom pulled me out of class, and then I moved. So I ( ) vividly remember going through 9/11, and just how much of like, it was such a big impact. And I didn't realize just how big it was in my, in my mind I'm like, "why are we watching this video on train-- on like not trains, on planes hitting towers. Because I didn't really understand, but as I, as it kept popping up, I realized how important and tragic that it was actually as I was getting older. So yeah 9/11 00:16:00I'm pretty sure it took everybody by storm when that hit. I'm trying to think of. [pause] Oh yeah, so we moved and then we, and then I lived in downtown. So now i'm in the city, and in the city, since I didn't, since I wasn't finished with my fifth grade I had to like get to a new school. And then there was a school right around the corner from my house called Jefferson Academy. I hate that school so much, it is probably the worst school I've ever been to Jefferson, or Jeff--I said academy, Jefferson Elementary School is just [pause] ghe-- Ghetto. It is so ghetto, that is like the best way to put it, it's so ghetto. The kids there are ghetto. I'm just, everybody okay, so um.. So I'm 00:17:00trying to think, I can't really remember my teacher's name, Mrs [pause] Jefferson? ( ) I can't remember her name, but she was my teacher. She was okay, like she was a really good teacher, and she was black. And like, I guess that's like the second black female teacher that I've ever had. And she was good, but she was good at teaching, like there was nothing really wrong with her. Everything wrong with the students. Okay, the students were just bad, they were very mean. I remember one girl who was talking so much to like, because we were all sitting in pairs at a table. Now because, like it was alphabetical order, so we are seven pairs and my partner wasn't there. So one girl got in trouble at one point and she's like, "I don't want to go sit over there by Charles!" That's 00:18:00what my teacher told her to go sit by me, I'm like, "I don't want you to sit by me either." It was just like, it's like little things like that. Like I didn't, like as a child I barely said anything. Like I was very quiet I very rarely ever said anything, I very rarely talked. When I did talk I was usually either very sarcastic or very sassy because people just. I don't know people can, I don't know, when I'm in certain environments I just realized people frustrated me a lot. So I just decided to like, not be personable with people when I was a child. Growing up and just being very sarcastic, very sassy. I still made friends. Somehow. But I was like that, that kid. Like if someone was trying to pick on me verbally I knew the really good comeback to make them look stupid, 00:19:00and then they disliked me after that. But yeah, like the kids in Jefferson Elementary were just really bad. Everyone, it just felt like everyone was just always trying to verbally attack one another. I had a friend, who is still my friend to this day, who went there. And like he can attest that yeah, they were, those kids were real bad. They just wanted to pick on somebody. It just felt like they wanted to look for targets and like come for that target, or something along those lines. And I just disliked going there. I went there for half a year, and I hated all six months. Um, sixth grade. I was in middle school and I went to this place called Ethel Hedgeman Lyle Academy. It doesn't exist now, but I did go there. It was a charter school. And it was basically, a school, it was 00:20:00basically an office turned school. So basically the place was a, this office building, with all these office rooms and stuff that they get turned into a school. And I remember a lot of, I remember just not liking that either, because it just like, the bullying on there. ( ) And around this time, is when I started becoming aware of my sexuality, and like my attraction to men. And I [laughter] There was some men in my classroom-- boys. These are boys, these some boys in my classroom, I just had to keep myself from staring at people. Not only because it looked weird but also because it's like, not something you should be doing. Because the school that I was still going to-- still ghetto. It was still pretty ghetto, so that's like, I feel as though there's like this unwritten code of like. [pause] When it comes to like dealing with black guys, and like gay guys, 00:21:00you just don't stare at them for too long. Because they'll think that you're trying to fight or that you like, got some against them. It's like this real macho thing, and like, "Oh you're trying to fight me? Why you staring at me?" Like, while I'm just like, "Oh?" ( ) But I can't say that though.

KM: I think just to kind of cut in for um. So how do you identify yourselve in terms of sexuality and gender?

CW: I'm a gay homosexual male. He-- I use he, he/him pronouns so. Yeah I have to be thinking on that, so I go by he/him pronouns. Recently I've been thinking that my sexuality is different, like, I'm thinking like non binary but as of right now I am still very keen on like he/him pronouns, like gay. I've been 00:22:00attracted to men for as long as I remember. I have tried being attracted to women. Yeah, they're pretty. They're really pretty. They're beautiful. It's just, uh. It just doesn't do it for me.

KM: So I guess kind of, you said, for as long as you can remember, but is there any specific instance early on that you can think back and kind of identify, as maybe when you started even questioning your own sexuality, or coming to terms with that?

CW: So the earliest I can remember is middle school. There was this one guy, and I would like, kind of always kind of like look at him. Like the creep I was, and I couldn't really understand why I was always looking at him. But like, like I, we didn't really talk that much, but I would always be like staring. Like, look 00:23:00him over, I'm like, "What he doing?" And it wasn't until eighth grade when I realized that "Oh, I might be gay." And I think it was eight grade that I started-- like the thought started entering my mind. But if you were to ask me when was the first time I realized that I was attracted to somebody, it was definitely sixth grade. But like eighth grade is when the thought of like being gay actually crossed my mind, because I remember somebody in class had said the word gay. They actually, they also said, the F word. Like the derogatory F-word on top of that, so like [pause] I was, in my head I was thinking, "I don't know what gay means. Like, what is that?" And then I found out what it meant, it's when like, another guy is attracted to another guy. I was like, "Oh--" With my 00:24:00surroundings, and the way the way I grew up, it's like, there was like always a negative connotation with being gay. It was always like this negative sort of aspect to it, if that makes sense. It's just, it was never like, "Oh you gay? That's great!" It was like, "Oh you gay? Are you sure?"

KM: Now was that in your family specifically, or was it more society in general, or your Community, wherever you were at the time?

CW: I feel as though, it's kind of like, all of it. As much as I hate to admit it. Like, well, one thing is like school like had the negative connotation like school. Obviously, like my mom. [pause] My mom one time found out that I was 00:25:00looking at things on a computer, of men. [clears throat] And you know, I just remember very vividly she telling me to be like, you know, like my mom was very religious. Like not very religious, but she does believe in like, you know. Christian. So she was like, "You need to go pray the demons away." And I don't necessarily think she was trying to say that because. [pause] I think she was just really worried for me, for being gay, because I think she just realized that like being gay in this world is not necessarily like, the easiest life. And it also might have to deal with her upbringing and like, because, like my mom was like born, in what, 1978, 1979? One of those years. So, like her upbringing could of also been a huge part of it. My mom hasn't really talked too much about her upbringing that much. But, but, I do know a little bit and it wasn't the 00:26:00best. So it just. [pause] It wasn't the best, like in any, in any connotation whenever the word gay came up. It was just always in a negative aspect, whether that be from society, whether that be from my family, whether that be from anywhere else that I could find. At the time I didn't have like Google. I did have a, no I had a phone.No, I didn't have a phone, but like, a friend of ours had laptops and that's how she found out because my mom's friend told her what I was looking at. So yeah, it's just all like this negative connotation, you know? It just. There was never any positive reinforcement.

KM: And how did you kind of navigate that as you were growing up, between 00:27:00society kind of not finding that-- I guess acceptable is the word. Yeah so how did you kind of navigate that? Did you find any role models? Or maybe peers that you could kind of identify with?

CW: I kind of think, I feel as though the way I could never get into it was for a long time, I actually denied my sexuality until high school. And in high school it got really bad, like it was pretty dark sophomore year and junior year. But I think senior year was a nice turning point for me because I started like, accepting who I was. And the way, I think the way I was doing that was that I started like, I found YouTubers. And the very first YouTuber I found 00:28:00happened to be gay. It was a, it was it was a YouTuber-- I remember very vividly being in my bed and it was like, "My Coming Out Story." And I was just like, "What is this?" And so I watched it, and I remember his name was Jack Merridew. And like he went into his coming out story, and then like I really resonated with that. And I was just like, "Oh I'm not alone." You know? Like I'm not by myself, like I'm not the only one that is going through all of this. Literally I found, I started watching all of Jack Marridew's videos, and like him having boyfriends and stuff. And then I started looking at Tyler Oakley. There's this one by Tyler Oakley and another one of my favorite like, celebrities, Troye Sivon, who was really big and like really big on YouTube. And MarkE Miller is another gay YouTuber and that I watched and they really just helped me. And they really, they made me realize that there were more people out there who are gay, 00:29:00lesbian, trans, bi, pan, whatever there may be. And I didn't feel so alone anymore. Which, and I, I basically like use them as like kind, of like a stepping stone to help me, because I was really scared of coming out. And I wasn't ready yet, but they were kind of a saving grace, of like navigating that, "Yeah, I'm gay, and yeah, it's okay."

KM: On a related point, how do you-- how did you feel about, kind of, perceptions of gay people in the media at that time? And even now, you know?

CW: When you say at that time, what do you mean?

KM: Kind of, when you were coming to terms with your sexuality. Say, senior year of high school when you were starting to accept yourself more.

CW: So, I feel as though, like, I still had a negative connotation, initially. 00:30:00But like, before I started like looking at all those YouTubers, like I had a negative connotation of them, like gay people, and of myself because I realized that I was also one. And, but it wasn't until like watching them, like watching them just be themselves, and just like live their normal everyday lives. Then I started being like, "Oh, these are normal people." I can be a normal person. I can be as normal as I can be, even though I'm kind of strange sometimes. And my perception slowly started changing and I slowly started feeling like they're, like like, what I've been hearing about gay people all my life has been wrong. Like I don't know why there's such a negative connotation with it, but that's, these people are just living their life. I am just living my life so. The 00:31:00perception that I initially had was negative, but then I eventually, it eventually turned positive. It eventually turned into like, me wanting to know more about the community that I was realizing that I'm going to be a part of. And now it feels like we are leagues far from what we are, what we were, back in, what was it, 2015. Even back in 2015, because that's when I graduated college [highschool] back in 2015. Even then, I remember being so happy when gay marriage got legalized, like on, on a federal level. And I was like, "Oh my God, yay!." I was just so happy and it just, it felt like there was so much. [pause] Excuse me. There was so much, we were doing to take strides for gay people. And it felt like the perception was getting better and better, you know? Like even 00:32:00more people on YouTube where like coming out as gay and coming out as bi, and whatever. And like it just felt like more. I'm seeing more of them just live their lives, or more of them not just talking about being gay. One of them like doing other things they enjoy, whether that be make up a gaming or stuff like that. I'm seeing more and more of that, and I'm just really happy about it. I'm just really happy for the representation, really happy to be seeing it. And I think the perception just keeps getting better I think in terms of society. Now the government on the other hand is sort of different, you know. [laughter]

KM: I guess we can kind of go back to high school. I know you said your sophomore and junior years were pretty dark times for you. What kind of-- how was your high school experience in general?

CW: Um, so highschool for me. Freshmen year I went to a city high school, for the first year. And like, that was pretty okay. I made some good friends that I've been happy to keep. Sophomore year, I we, I got transferred to a different school. And the school I got transferred to was Valley Park, which is all the way out there by Fenton. It's this little, this little strip and Valley Park. [pause] Valley Park, they kind of country. Just a little bit. But I didn't hate Valley Park. So it's strange because sophomore year was alright for the first semester. Spring semester was pretty dark. Junior year was all dark. But like, like in terms of like the school, like I felt as though like, the school, this 00:34:00environment was a lot different. Like there were no more, outward, negative connotations for being gay, in this environment, I would say. Like there were no more, like, negative connotations that I was getting. I barely got any kind of connotations on anything, barely. It just felt like I was just going to school and learning like I was supposed to. Going about my day, going back home and doing homework, you know? And not having to worry about people's perceptions of me. Senior year was probably the best because I joined cross country. And like, I was running, doing all this other stuff. Having a good old time, even though cross country sucked. And I mean suck, as in like it was hard. It was hard. But I did enjoy cross country, and I just felt overall that when I transferred from, from like my schools, like it got better. BecauseI was basically going to a 00:35:00county school. And so it just felt like a different atmosphere. And it just got better, and funnily enough in my senior year of high school I realized that there were other people who were part of the LGBTQ+ community, and I did not know that. Until senior year-- I was really sad that I didn't figure that out until senior year, but it did, it did help because, like I felt like, even less alone. If that makes sense, I felt even less alone.

KM: Um, so you mean you found out people at the school were in those communities?

CW: Yeah, we went to school, like even classmates that I, that I was taking classes with for like a couple years. I was like, "Oh? Wait, you're bi? I didn't know that." [laughter] So yeah. High school overall wasn't too too terrible. I 00:36:00will say, the um, the only terrible year was junior year, because junior year was pretty dark. But senior year, freshman, sophomore. Freshmen, sophomore, and senior year weren't bad. There I actually enjoyed most of my time in that school.

KM: Could you care to talk a little bit about what made junior year so dark for you? And if that's too much to discuss, it's perfectly fine.

CW: Junior year, the reason why junior year was dark. It-it, okay. So like, if feels like there are stages to like, like, coming out, right? Like there's the denial state, right? And in most of my life, like when like, eighth grade when I started acknowledging that I was gay. I denied that shit to the end of, to the, to no end. And I denied it. I was like, "Nah. Nah nah nah nah nah nah no. I just haven't been attracted to the right girl yet, you know?" Like, and that's what 00:37:00other people in my family were saying. Like, "You'll find the right girl one day." And like, in my head, I was like, "Yeah, I'll find the right girl one day. Yeah. Maybe." And so, like, like, not that my family knew that I was gay. They might have suspected it, but they uh, most of the time they would just say I'll find the right girl. Even though they could just say okay. Okay anyway, then like, it was like, it wasn't until near the end of like sophomore year, where I had, I had stopped denying it. And I was like, "Okay, well, I know that I'm gay." And then the problem then became, "Well now that I know that I'm gay, I hate myself." So, junior year was just self loathing. Self hatred and a lot of like thoughts that were really dark. A lot of times where I don't think I would 00:38:00have been on this earth anymore. Yeah, there was one night where it was really bad. I didn't do anything, but the thoughts were so strong that I almost attempted something. That's all that I'mma say on that. But, um, that's what made junior year really bad. Also I wasn't really doing good in class. In one of my classes, like normally I was like a straight-A student, and like I just tend to do pretty well. It's not that I always aim to be straight-A. I just usually did my work and read the materials. [phone chimes] Sorry. And I knew the materials, and I just kind of studied as much as I could. But this one class I just wasn't doing well, and that was because I hate reading books. I hated reading books, especially when they're books forced upon me that I don't care about. So, like a lot of the read-- a lot of stuff in this class had to do with reading assignments. I could not for the life of me want to read none of the 00:39:00books. And it was American literature, I can-- I, everyone talked about the Scarlet Letter. I didn't want to read the Scarlet Letter! Like I know it's a good book, and I know that it has, it has this really good message. And like, I've just, but, at the time I didn't want to read the Scarlet Letter. I just wanted to do anything but read the Scarlet Letter. And I know I missed out, like maybe when, or like, right now. Like now if I was like, "Oh man, I really want to read Scarlet Letter." I'll read, but back then I didn't know. So I wasn't doing good in that class because I wasn't reading the material. I hated being forced to read stuff that was-- I didn't want to read. And like, I wasn't doing good. So, like, I had a lot of like, my own issues of self loathing. Self hating, and then also I wasn't doing good for the first time in a class. And I just thought, "Oh my God, that just makes it even worse. Like, "What if I don't 00:40:00even pass highschool?"

KM: So, did you feel, kind of a lot of pressure to succeed academically?

CW: Yes. Yes. Mainly because like, it's like because, like, my mom like wanted me to like, really focus on my education since she didn't get the chance to finish high school. So, she wanted me to do the best that I could to finish. To like, do good in school, and like, I felt as though, like-- yeah my mom was like, never like strict strict. Like she was never like, "Oh my God, if you get like a C on your grading assignments, you're the worst child ever." All she, she would be like, "You can improve on that, and you can do better next time," most of the time. But I knew that like, if I wanted to get anywhere in life, because a lot of times you always thought that A's and B's are like, the way to go. I tried my best to get A's and B's in all of my classes, and all of my like, 00:41:00classes or assignments, and stuff. And yeah, like what if-- if I ever saw C, God forbid if I ever saw a D or an F, my whole world would be shattered. I'm like "I'm gonna fail, drop out, ( ). I don't know, it just, it was one of those kind of things. So yeah, there was some pressure. Some of it was mom, like mine, like you know my mom wanted me to do good in school. And then the other half of it was just me wanting to like, have people proud of me. That i'm actually doing in school without like-- I wanted people to be like, "Hey," like, "he's doing really good, that's my like cousin, or that's my nephew." You know like, I wanted people to like, really think that I was smart, and that I was able to do good.

KM: Kind of what led you to running-- was it cross country? Or was it just track?

CW: It was cross country. We didn't have a track team until after I graduated.

KM: [laughter] Alright so yeah, what kind of led you into that? Or, how was that for you?

CW: My friend. My friend, who did cross country since sophomore year kept telling me, "Charles, you should do cross country." Every year. Every year! When cross country was-- when it was cross country season, he would be like "Yeah, like we do like, this is so fun Charles. You're gonna enjoy it. Just get on cross country, just do cross country." And eventually, finally, I caved senior year. And I was like, or uh, like, not senior year. It was like junior year because like I had summer cross country training. So like, I caved on like junior year till, up until senior year like, "Fine, I'll join cross country." And I did. And [laughter] it was very hard. I had never run so much in my life. I didn't even-- I didn't, you know what's funny? I didn't even really know what cross country was. I just knew you had to run, and I didn't know it was distance 00:43:00running. And so, when I started running I'm like "Oh no, no, no, no, I don't want to do this no more!" But like the cross country team was like, really like great people. I liked them, that's kind of why-- also my best friend was on it at the time. So I was just like, "Okay, I'll stay for them. Because the people on cross country were amazing, but the sport itself sucked. SUCKED, SUCKED! It sucked so hard.

KM: Were you active in any other kind of extracurricular activities in high school?

CW: No, I think one time, I tried chess. I just, I did not have the patience for chess at the time. To just sit down and learn some many strategies. Also I played one chess match with one student who was already really good at it. He was like, "Oh I won't I won't be that bad I'm not going to hurt you that bad." 00:44:00He completely dominated me, I'm like, "You know what? I think I'm done with chess." And then, um, there was, I forget what's it's called. We had a team, it was like, it's like quiz? Like, do you know what? Do you know what that is when you like, there's like different categories and like, there's like a pop category, like a history category math category. It's like, like we had we have something along those lines, I can't remember what I was. Um, but yeah, I did that for a little while. But then I realized I didn't like this because all of them knew all the pop questions. I did not know the history questions because they were really, really hard history questions. And then I also tried. [pause] I also tried color guard. My school got color guard, and you know I just stopped 00:45:00that one too. Mmhm, let's just say that. Let's just say I stopped that one too because I may or may not have dropped the flag like five times during the like choreography.

KM: So I guess we'll kind of transition into your college career. Are you a first generation college student?

CW: Yes, I am. I am the first person in my family to go to college.

KM: And how did that kind of affect your transition or search from high school to higher education?

CW: It was very difficult because, number one, I didn't even know what I wanted to do in the first place. And I was just really confused. I'm like, "I don't know what I want to do. I barely even-- I can barely like, throw a flag in there. What makes you think I'm going to be able to know what I want to do for the rest of my life?" I think that's what it was all the time, like, for the rest of my life. What do I want to do. I'm like, "I don't know." Like I'm 00:46:00scared, like what if I get in a job, what if I get in a job and then like for 40 years and then I realize, "Oh my God I don't like this job." And then I'm just like, what, what was my life? Working at a job I didn't care about. So I was always scared about like my future and what I could do. And it wasn't until my um, who was it? My um, the counselor at my school. He told me about Community college and I was like, "Well yeah, what is community college?" Oh another thing about college. I was scared of like how will I pay for college, because college is expensive. And he was like, "Well community college is the most affordable thing that you," so I was just going to community college. That's what I did. I went to St Louis Community College Meramec. Like, we took a tour and I really liked it. And then I found out how much it would cost, and I'm like, "This is very affordable." My financial aid was covering all my classes and I met some 00:47:00people in community college that are still my friends to this day. That will probably stay my friends for the rest of my life. So I am a huge advocate for community college. If you can go to community college go to community college. But I love community college. I wish I could've got my degree at community college.

KM: Um, so what are you majoring in?

CW: Currently, I am a media studies major. I kind of have a, I don't have an emphasis in anything, but I do want to go into like, the journalism field. More specifically, I would like to be a video game journalist. I love video games, I love playing video games, and it would be amazing to be able to review video games for a living. It's still a hard field to like, actually make a living out of. It's like, really difficult. I wish I knew that before I did it. But, you 00:48:00know like, I think I can try to figure something out. I've been talking with one of my professors, and he's been helping me navigate this and try to like find a good job for me. So yeah that's like kind of my degree, and that's kind of what I'm trying to do with my degree. So yeah.

KM: Uh, were there any professors at STLCC that kind of helped you, kind of narrow down what you wanted to do? Or was that more of a private journey for you?

CW: Huh. I think it was, I think it was a little bit of both. Like number one, this is around the time when I started making my own YouTube channel and like, I started being like really into like media, and like, stuff like that. And I thought media studies would be the perfect thing to supplement me wanting to be 00:49:00content creator. So that's like kind of the direction I started going into and then, again I loved my-- the classes I was taking. That I was taking like intro to like, script writing. Stuff like that was like, really interesting to me. Like, I was like, "Oh, I would love script writing, you know? Like how do like, TV shows choose, like write scripts? What do scripts look like?" Like mass communication falls with them like, YouTube-ish a little bit, so I was curious about that. Like, it was like stuff like that, and it like eventually when I took-- What was it? Uh. What was the name of that class? Intro to, it was some intro class. I can't really remember what. An intro to like, film. I think, intro to film making. I think after that class I was really just kind of 00:50:00invested into all media, like media stuff going on. And I was like, "Alright, alright. I think this, this, this might be for me."

KM: And so did you come straight to UMSL from STLCC or did you start somewhere else?

CW: Yeah, after I got my associates degree at STLCC I came straight into UMSL. And that was mainly because all the advisors and counselors there were like, "Yeah if you go to UMSL like we have a really good standing with them. Like we, it wouldn't cost as much, and like it would be fairly cheap. Around like St. Louis Community College." Which is a lie if you are doing room and board! [laughter] So it was not cheap. But yeah, that's kind of like, I kind of like immediately came here right after I got my associates degree. Which I think took 00:51:00me three years to like get my associates degree. Three or four, I don't know, I can't really remember. ( ) it was like four. And then I took a semester off. Yep.

KM: So you took a semester off?

CW: Yeah, I took a semester off before coming here to UMSL, mainly because, like, I was trying to figure out if I will come to UMSL. So I took that because I was-- it was either UMSL, go to UMSL, or go to Missouri State University, or is that the one in Cape Girardeau?

KM: That's SEMO.

CW: That, SEMO, yes, South Eastern Missouri State University.

KM: Mmhm.

CW: Like it was either between those two. And my sister went to, she, she also was like looking into which school she wanted, and she would eventually chose SEMO. And I looked at SEMO's pricing and I was like, "I don't think I can pay 00:52:00for this. Like, this is a lot. Like UMSL is pretty much a lot, but like, I've come to realize, like, it wouldn't have been a lot if I didn't live on campus. It would have been like way cheaper, but like SEMO was just way too much because I would have had to live on campus, and then like like pay for school. And i'm like, "I will be in more debt than I'm in now!" Like, I went to SEMO. So I took that semester to try to figure out what I wanted to do like which college I wanted to do, and I eventually chose UMSL.

KM: So yeah, how's UMSL been for you? You get along with professors and all that?

CW: Yeah, my first year here at UMSL I felt really lost. I did not know a single thing, but luckily for me I was part of TRIO at Meramec. And they have like a 00:53:00TRIO program and then they told me about the Multicultural Student Services. They're still that now. That what they're called now? Yeah. So they told me about that, and they told me like, that would be a good place to like start and like get into that. And like, there's a scholarship also with them, so I went to them and they helped me acclimate to UMSL so much. Like I, I unfortunately do not talk to them as much as I probably should right now, but they helped me acclimate so much. My, my, so like they have their, there's like the TRIO counselors and then there's the academic counselors that, you know, would help you with picking out classes. My TRIO counselor, I loved her so much she was so great. Andrea, I love Andrea. She doesn't go here now, no more because she found a new job, but I love her. She always listened to me. [laughter] She thought I 00:54:00was spicy. I was her most, as she put it, memorable of her TRIO, like her students. That I'm her most memorable, of course I am. But she, she was great. She helped me to really understand UMSL a lot more. Made me like being here more, because the first, initially when I first came here, I thought I made the wrong decision. I was like, "Oh my God, I should've went to SEMO." And that was just because I had a lot of classes, I didn't really have too many friends. Because I was thinking, at least at SEMO I would've known my sister. But like, eventually I started making friends, and I started like really trying to set a schedule out and like really started acclimating a lot better. And then I started feeling more confident in like, being here. So yeah, Andrea was great. 00:55:00And then I think like all of my professors were fine, but like Andrea was a standout, and then also Ryan, Ryan Krull, who's like part of like the media group journalism stuff. He's amazing. He's like one of my favorite professors of all time. He's one of those professors who go above and beyond, and try to help me. Ryan is also like number one up there, like he's great.

KM: So, as you got acclimated to campus, did you start to get involved with any extracurricular organizations? Student orgs or anything like that?

CW: Um, yeah. Could you give me one second? [mutes and turns camera off temporarily] Alright I'm back. It was just getting pretty dark over here, so I 00:56:00wanted to make it not that, so I could have some light and not look like Casper's black ghost. So yeah, I did get involved with a couple of things. So initially I got involved with, what was it, games? Games club? Gaming club? Like I went to their, them a couple of times. I didn't really stay too too much all 00:57:00the time because, like they mainly always played Magic or D&D. I didn't play Magic or D&D. They did know about, a little bit about like, YuGiOh, and like other stuff but they mainly played Magic and D&D. Like that's like the main thing they did, that is the main thing they still do. So I just couldn't get part of the games club here on campus because it's just they would do mainly the same two things. And that's fine, if that's what they like then that's what they like. Um, trying to think, I don't think I got too involved on too many things. I did go to a lot of events like, that I didn't realize were held by our like activity board like University Program Board, which i'm also part of now. I have a job on now, so I went to like Mirthweek carnival and some other UPB stuff. I 00:58:00did like go to a like, some homecoming stuff. Oh at one point I was part of RCM, the revolution, I forget their name, but I was part of RCM, which is like the Christian group here. But I'm not part of RCM no more for reasons. But yeah, that is kind of it, yeah. I think those were the only things I really got involved through on campus. Some kinds of groups, and student orgs.

KM: Would you feel comfortable kind of discussing why you're no longer part of Revolution Campus Ministries?

CW: Oh yeah, I can tell you that, because I didn't. They uh, their beliefs were not really correlating with who I was. So uh, like once I figured that out, I had to leave that.

KM: That's fair.

CW: I was just about to say, it's not like they were mean to me or anything. 00:59:00It's just that their beliefs were not correlating with what I believe, and I was like, "I gotta go."

KM: Mmhm. And how did you feel, I guess, when did you learn about PRIZM on campus?

CW: I knew about PRIZM. I think it was the semest-- I think it was like the fall of like, of like-- I came into UMSL spring 2019, I believe. It wasn't until fall 2019-2020 year that I learned about PRIZM, and I just kind of like saw the signs up over, like in the MSC. I just kind of saw PRIZM meet, like I was like, "Oh? Is that something gay related? Because ya boy kind of need friends." More friends than I already had because a lot of my friends were, what I know to be, straight. So I just didn't, I just like, I was just like, "I need more gay 01:00:00friends. I don't have many, I just, I don't really have any." Funnily enough I have started finding out that my friend group wasn't as straight as I initially though, but that's another story. So yeah, that's how I kind of found out about PRIZM, it was mainly like. [pause] [door opens in back of room] Oh. It's my cat. That's how I found out about PRIZM, it was mainly like, through the MSC, and me wanting to connect with more like LGBTQ+ people in general, and like I started going to the meetings. Then I stopped going to the meetings because there was like really no one in PRIZM at the time. I think there was like four people. And like eventually, school was starting catch-catching up to me and so I just like stopped going to the meetings all together. Until recently, which I think I got 01:01:00a ( ) talk.

KM: Um, so earlier you kind of mentioned at different schools, you felt different perceptions about your sexuality, and kind of just different stigmas about homosexuality. So how was that kind of transferred into your college career? Did you feel any of that pressuring you were kind of-- did you recognize any of that at STLCC and UMSL or, or no?

CW: I don't think I necessarily had that feeling of like negative connotations, or actually, this is probably-- if, if, high school was the most neutral of like connotations, because I didn't really know what people thought. Or, but no one also didn't really say anything, then college was probably the most positive of connotations, because we actually have people who are out, and it was like a clone. So yeah, I had a way to literally talk with other people, and like, 01:02:00instead of like it'd be like this virtual thing like as the YouTube content creators were, this was like actually people that I could sit down and talk to. So like they was literally sitting like a chair length across from me. So I, I feel as though, like coming into college is like the most positive experience that I've had in terms of like my sexuality. I mean by senior year I was, really I was, I was probably by senior high school, I was probably like the most comfortable with myself. Like I just started like, not caring who knew, because I had already accepted myself. So I had a lot, I had a lot of confidence in who I was at this point, so like regardless if the outlook was negative I was gonna, I thought of myself as positive, at this point.

KM: I guess kind of to wrap up, or I guess loop back in our conversation about 01:03:00education, very early on you kind of mentioned you being cognizant early on of the of teachers being white, vs. very few teachers being black. So kind of how is race, how do you think race has kind of influenced or impacted your education?

CW: In some regards it felt like whenever I was going to public, when I was going to like public schools, when I was living downtown, it felt like though white teaching didn't really care too too much. Whereas my black teachers, when I was going like the public schools, like they cared a lot. Like in my county schools, it didn't matter if they were white or black. It was very obvious that they cared about teaching, but in my public school when I lived downtown the white teachers, there wasn't as many, but it also felt, like it felt like they 01:04:00didn't really care. Like it felt like that they were just like doing this job just to like, look good on a resume so they can get another job. Because what it felt like where the black teachers were actually trying to talk, talk to us about the real world, trying to help us do better trying to like, help us, like succeed. And so that was kind of like a big thing, and then on top of that, and like when I was going to like, the public schools that was predominantly, like more black, like we we had less money. So we didn't have chances to get really good books. Some of our books were like years old editions and so I'm just like, "Oh my God." And then, when I went to Valley Park they had more up to date books, you know? They had money, they had funding, they could buy books like this. And it just really show, and like when, I when I first transferred to Valley Park I thought I was stupid. Even though I had high grades when I was at 01:05:00public school, but it felt like the curriculum was a little bit harder, or it was just like different. Because I think that they had like more current books so like, they can like, keep up with like what a school is supposed to keep it up and doing. And like I felt like I was so behind from everyone else, and it took me a minute, but like I finally was able to catch up. And like actually like, show that I'm also really smart. Like show that I'm not like, you know, dumb. But I feel I was also very cognizant of my own race as well, like especially like when it came to math. Like [laughter] I don't know why, I just really wanted to do good in math. Even though I hate math and I'm not that good at math, I just mainly always like got help from the teachers so I can know what to do and then move on. But in math always wanted to do good because I always wanted to be like, "None of y'all are gonna say anything about me being bad at math. I'm good at math, don't you dare."

KM:And then you mentioned you graduated from high school in 2015?

CW: Yeah

KM: So did 2014 and Mike Brown kind of have an impact at your school? Or on you personally at the time?

CW: Oh yes. Um, I was never a news person, so I didn't know about it until it was brought up in my-- what class was that-- my government class. And my government class, so the government teacher, it makes sense why she would bring it up because she's very much in the news, very much in tune with that. And she was like this, this right here this is something that's real that had, that, because we-- I think, literally the lesson that we learned before the Mike Brown case on, before the Mike Brown shooting was, what was it? We learned about racial profiling. And we learned on like how racial profiling isn't necessarily 01:07:00something they keep in the books. It's just something that happens from cop to cop, or like from law official from law official. It's just something that like, we know happens, but it's hard to prove that it happened, you know? But then like, we also learned like, why there's, even though there's more white people in the overall world, like overall, there's way more black peoples incarcerated than there are whites. And then we just like it was just like a lot of that and then Mike Brown happened. And then it just really hit, you know? Like racial profiling, all the stuff about incarcerations, all the stuff that my mom, my mom was trying to talk to me about, as I was growing up. Like yes, black people are treated differently, we aren't treated the same, and I just didn't really get it until that moment. But that moment was when, "Oh. [pause] I get it." It took 01:08:00that event for me to just really understand that I am not in the same standing as my other peers and students who were predominantly white, because I went to a PWI {predominately white institution} when I transferred to Valley Park. And at that, that's what hit me was that it just wasn't the same world after that. So yeah, that's kind of how it affected me like, I guess you could say became "woke." I became woke.

KM: I guess, we can kind of cycle back and do a section where childhood, and kind of discussing more of your upbringing. Um, I know you said you, you've always had a lifelong interest in video games. So would you care to talk a little bit about that?

CW: I am so glad you asked. Because I, I don't remember when I got it, but the very first console that I can remember getting, like that I actually owned, was 01:09:00a Nintendo 64. And I was so happy to have it. It just was one of my favorite things. I had Mario Kart, I had, I think I had Diddy Kong Racing, and then I also had Super Mario 64. Which, by the way, Super Mario 64 was the first ever game that I ever completed, like actually through and through. Like, what-- the first ever platformer game. I had never beaten a game, ever, because I never had a gaming console until then, but like that was the first one that I was like, "Oh I actually did it." Like I beat the game, I beat Bowser, although I was so frustrated. But video games were just like my livelihood, like after Nintendo 64 I got a Game Cube. And on Game Cube I was playing it up. Like, I had Mario Kart 01:10:00Double Dash, I didn't get Super Mario Sunshine at the time, because we used to be poor. So [laughter] so couldn't get everything that I wanted, and a lot of times I had to rent games. So I remember renting Super Mario 64, and being very happy about that. Like, liking that for a while, even though I never got the chance to beat it. And a lot of my childhood was also, I forgot to mention that I would be with my cousin a lot. He was just kind of like, in my life a lot, when I was growing up, and we play video games together all the time. Like stuff like Sonic Riders, uh [laughter] that game was so stupid. Billy Hatchet, which is another oldie I think that was made by Sega, which I think is an underrated gem that they need to make again, but they're probably never gonna do that. So yeah, basically video games just helped me like escape whenever like, I didn't 01:11:00want to like, think about the fact that I'm poor, or that, or think about the anything else. I would just like, play video games to just escape into, into the game. So yeah, I could go on and on about video games, but I didn't want this to be like a 30 minute long rant. But mainly video games, it's kind of like an escape for me.

KM: Well, thank you for sharing that. Um, did you have any pets growing up?

CW: Yeah. I had a turtle. I had a turtle, the turtle was dying, we had to let it go inside the forest. I also had goldfishes, which I actually kept alive, but my sister, she like, my, my sister, who's now like, who's now what? 16? No no, 01:12:00she's. Yeah, she's 16. At the time she was like born, and she put couch stuffings in and killed most of my fish. The only fish we had left was Bubbles, and he was a fish with like, big eyes. And eventually he died too. So yeah, I did have pets. I also had a gerbil at some point, but uh we took the gerbil back because it bit one of my cousins and she was bleeding profusely. [sighs] You know, I didn't really have a good, best track record with pets. And my mom's boyfriend at the time, he loved animals and like, that's who was giving me the animals. ( ) And I was the per killer back then I guess, I don't know.

KM: But now you got a cat.

CW: Now I have a cat. She is-- she knows how to open doors. [laughter] Amazingly 01:13:00this does, this door in my room doesn't close all the way. It doesn't like click that, like actually close like, so like she knows, she can open it because it doesn't close all the way.

KM: That's university housing. [pause] Did you have any other hobbies or things you'd liked to do a lot when you were a child?

CW: Um, I mainly did a lot what most of the children do was go outside, play, play video games a lot. Oh, I think, like YuGiOh growing up so, card collecting for a while. I would just like my play YuGiOh with my friends, that was something that I was really interested in. Simply YuGiOh now. Like, there was like a while where I didn't play YuGiOh but now I've kind of come back to the game. So I still play it, now that I actually understand how to play it. Back 01:14:00then, I did not. We was making up stuff because. I could've sworn, I swear to you we was making up rules that was not legal, but we saw it in the show. And we was like "They do it in the show, it must be legal." No it wasn't. No it wasn't. It wasn't. So mainly we played a lot of YuGiOh. It's what I was doing. Yep. I didn't have too many hobbies as I was like a child.

KM: Alright, next we'll transition to kind of talking about careers and jobs. And let's start off, well I guess you kind of discussed a bit of your dream job, but if you'd care to kind of explain a little bit more into what you think that would look like, or if you have any prospects.

CW: Okay, my dream job which might not ever happen, is me being a content, a successful content creator. And why that might not ever happen is because I am 01:15:00so terrible at keeping a schedule, and then on top of that, I am so scatterbrained. Like, like, I love games, like obviously, like yeah, "Charles you love games." Like, "You would make a gaming channel." And I'm like "Yeah, yeah, I like games." But then I also like blogging too. And then I also like, I also like watching news. I also like talking about movies. And I'm just like, and people are just like, "Well just create three separate channels." And I'm like, "Well that would mean me posting three times a week. One each." I always struggle doing one a week, on one channel. There is absolutely no way that I'm gonna do it three different channels. So recently, which by recently I mean literally yesterday, I decided it's just probably gonna have to be a variety channel at this point. And what I mean by that is like, not sure how much 01:16:00content, how many YouTube you watch. By variety I mean stuff like the bigger content creators do. Where like, they're already successful so they can do everything on one channel. I feel as though I'm gonna have to skip the successful part and do everything on one channel, because I am too scatterbrained to like have a focused channel. There's absolutely no way it's gonna work for me. I have tried it for four years now, trying to have a focused gaming channel, and I can't do it. I, I absolutely can't do it. I have to do more than one thing. And it, it sucks because YouTube promotes focused channels, so a channel like mine, and it'll be a struggle. Imma say that. But yeah, maybe one day.

KM: And then to the crushing reality of, of work. Do you remember your first job?

CW: My first job. Yes, I hated it. The first job I ever got was, well, I guess you can say my first technical job was babysitting. I would babysit my cousins for a couple dollars or so, like $20. It was okay, but it is not something that lasts. But my first real real, like official job was Six Flags. I worked at Six Flags in food service as a cashier, and boy did I hate that. Six Flags SUCKS. It sucks so bad. I do not, I do not recommend, unless you have to have a job I guess but. They do give you a 10 cent raise every year you stay longer. So yeah! Eventually, you will make enough money to live, if you stay there for your life. 01:18:0010 cent. What am I gonna do with 10 cent? Six Flags.Anyway, that was the first ever job, I hated it, because food service sucks, people suck, and also we were always rushed. And there was always some sort of crowd, like there was always a food rush, I hated it. I wish I was on ride management, not food service. Food service also got paid the least, which didn't make sense to me because we deal with the most stuff. I didn't get that. Yeah, my first job was working at Six Flags, and the reason why I don't work at Six Flags anymore was because I told my scheduler that I needed two weeks off, because my family had, was thinking about going on vacation. So they asked me/ told me to get two weeks off, and so I did. And then they still kept scheduling me, even though I told him that, take me off the schedule. Yeah so, I just didn't come in to work anymore.

KM: And now you currently work with UMSL on the University Program Board?

CW: Yes, I'm part of, I am the executive, Chair of the University Program Board. We plan like events and stuff on campus, like, well mostly free events for people to enjoy. So yeah, it just feels like I've come like, a long way from Six Flags.

KM: I guess, we can kind of talk a bit more about your identity. So I know you've been, you mentioned you've been searching for ways to connect with more gay people, or the LGBTQ community at large. So have you gotten much chance to kind of explore St. Louis or interact with the St. Louis gay community in anyway?

CW: Not until recently, actually. I went out with a couple of friends, and like, 01:20:00recently, and I finally was able to go to The Grove. I've never been to The Grove in my life. I knew of The Grove, but I never been to The Grove, and so I finally went to The Grove and it was great. Like I had a great time, like nothing really crazy happened. But it was a, it was definitely, finally I was able to see our little L-- like our little gay community here. It's not like the biggest thing, but it was definitely, it's definitely something, you know? So, most of my interactions with like, the LGBTQ+ community comes from like schools or from watching YouTubers still, mostly. But now I have more friends who are LGBTQ+. Who are part of the community, so that's like a good thing, in my book.

KM: Um, do you feel the pandemic has kind of affected your being able to engage 01:21:00with the LGBTQ+ community in St Louis?

CW: Well when the pandemic happened I was actually happy, because I got to stay home. I like staying at home. So no, not um, no, because I was like, at that point, like I didn't really have too many gay friends. Or, so I, going out into the bars and stuff was still never in my mind, or anything that I wanted to do or any gay activity. Or like, I would like doing gay activities, but I, our school didn't have too many of those. Or I would forget to go to them so, yeah, I would say COVID didn't really affect me personally, because I didn't already go out.

KM: So do you participate in any activism for LGBTQ+ rights or any other causes?

CW: [laughter] No, I'm not very much of a activist. I know, I like, I know of stuff, but I'm not very like, political at all.

KM: Do you ever feel, kind of an expectation or a pressure to to be an activist? Or to serve a role kind of explaining gay activism, or even African American activism, to other people?

CW: Sometimes, like not necessarily like. Yes, sometimes. Like, like I see videos on YouTube of like my content creators, who are very well versed, very smart, they know how to like, say stuff. And then I just be feeling like, "I didn't know that." Um also i'm stupid, and then also like, I feel bad for not, 01:23:00like being more active sometimes. But I know me personally am not that much of a political person. Although, should a chance arise, if I was ever in a situation like yeah, I would speak up for Black, Black Lives Matter, the Black Lives Matter movement. And speak up for um, the LGBTQ+ community and talk about that, talk about, you know, stuff that I know. Sometimes I'm not in the know know, all of the times. So I don't really know what's going on all the time. Luckily I have friends and stuff now, and so more gay stuff that does happen, like I do know. Like the trans things right now, I wouldn't have known that on my own, because I don't watch the news. But I have friends who do, or who like keep up with the stuff like that, so it keeps me in the know.

KM: Hm. And I guess, kind of in that same vein, while you're not a very political person, I remember you said you felt very strong feelings of happiness 01:24:00when gay marriage was legalized. Is there anything more you'd like to kind of share, about that?

CW: About when gay marriage was legalized?

KM: Mmhm.

CW: Um, I think leading up to like learning about gay marriage getting legalized, I think I was watching a lot of content creators who were really really rooting for us. Like, "Go out there, get that gay marriage legalized!" Because like, you know, in my head I was just like, "Yeah, we're gay, but we should be able to get married too without there being so much push back." And all these like content, gay content creators that I watched, they're just normal people watching, watching the gays lives getting married. And maybe even at some point in my head I was like, "Why shouldn't I be allowed to be married, or get married?" So I think like, that is where that euphoria came from, just like, 01:25:00"Yes. I get the chance to get married as well." Like, because initially it was like, what? A civil union? And some people didn't mind civil unions, but people who wanted to be married they should be able to get married if they want to. So, and the civil union, I don't care what people say, that is not the same as marriage, okay? It is not, it's not the same thing. You can't tell me otherwise, it's, that's not the same thing.

KM: Do you have any plans to get married one day?

CW: Maybe, who knows? Never know, I would like a, like a little, like a man. So you know, maybe one day. Yeah.

KM: Would you feel comfortable kind of discussing your experiences with relationships?

CW: I mean yeah, um, the only thing is I haven't had a relationship. Like, I've had like, I've dated other guys, and like I've been like, it feels, it's just, 01:26:00it feels like we were just dating. Like we weren't anything official. One guy it was kind of official, but even then it felt more dating than official. Like none of the, nobody who I've dated have made me feel, um, terrible. So yeah. I did used to use Grindr. Grindr, Grinder is not that great. Grindr will destroy your self esteem faster than you can say chocolate. So yeah, that's kind of, I don't really have too much of a dating life. I wish I did, but I can't really tell you anything because I've never been in a full fledged relationship where I actively called someone my boyfriend. Yet.

KM. Mmhm.

CW: Yet.

KM: That's the key word, yet.

CW: Yes.

KM: I'm assuming we started at about 6:20 or so, so I think we're kind of coming up right about, right on time to end. So, I guess, one of my last questions is how do you feel the LGBTQ +, or even just the gay community, has kind of changed in your lifetime?

CW: So yeah I mentioned earlier, like, it felt like there was a perspective switch when gay marriage got legalized. Like it felt like, it felt like the world was coming to terms with gay people in general. That we exist. That we're normal. That we just, although yes, our attraction is different, that doesn't mean, or like attraction or maybe we are a different, maybe we aren't the 01:28:00correct gender that we view ourselves, or anything that that's where it's like people are starting to realize that's as normal as anybody else in the society. So, that, that they shouldn't be ostracized for it. And I would feel as though beforehand, maybe it's because of the product of the environment I was in, or maybe it's just because I was with kids who were ignorant, but maybe that was the reason, but it feels like kindergarten-- not kindergarten, I don't know when it started. The bullying like maybe 5th grade up until about freshman year of highschool, like that's just when it was really bad, like my environment wasn't helping, my family wasn't helping too much, not in the way I would've liked. ( ) 01:29:00And it just, it just felt like there was no support for me, there was no support for other people who were gay, and like people, like the people I was watching on YouTube it felt like they had no support either. Like they were just talking about how some people in their family didn't like them. Or like how, like they'd just get these looks when they'd hold hands with their boyfriend and just like, that stuff is still scary to me. That stuff is still something I worry about constantly. Like, you know if I do get a boyfriend and we hold hands on the street, is someone going to attack us? Is someone going to like come at me? And thats, that's scary to me. And then that's just like the gay aspect. What if I get pulled over by a cop? How's that experience going to be? Like, and that's also like scary, like I always get scared when cops are around now since Mike 01:30:00Brown. It just, I don't know, it just. But to answer the question, I feel as though, I don't really know. It feels as though society itself is moving forward in terms of perspectives getting better and more positive, but it also feels as though our government is going backwards in a way. That's such a strange thing to say, but it feels like the government is regressing, which is effecting laws and stuff, but then society is trying to move forward, you know? Like society, like the people are trying to go forward, the government is trying to go back. It's just like, "what?" We need to be on the same page here. Forward.

KM: I guess to kind of address something you mentioned. So do you feel at any time in your life, maybe your racial, have racial dynamics and you being queer 01:31:00ever made you feel unsafe in any environments or?

CW: I feel as though, maybe me being gay has been more obvious than me being black, because it feels like, when it comes to black, like, what is it? Black micro-aggressions? It's usually is micro-aggressions, right? Like you know, like maybe you get looked at weirdly, or something like that. Although, recently like I've been more aware of cops now because of the whole situation with cops. [laughter] So I'm more leery of cops and you know, stuff like that. But with my sexuality and like being gay, that's a little bit more prominent in my mind 01:32:00because eventually I want to be able to hold hands with my boyfriend and not have to worry about anything. And like while I hold hands with my boyfriend like, it, it's not like, it's not like it's just a cop I have to worry about. It's like anyone. I have to worry about, it's like, anyone, even someone so unassuming could be a threat to me and potentially a future spouse. So, it just feels slightly more scary as a gay, as a gay person. But I'm not saying it's not scary as a black person too with that, also has its own problems and it's very obvious from what we've been experiencing within the past couple of years.

KM: And where do you think, or maybe where do you hope, kind of the LGBTQ+ 01:33:00community will be? What will it be like, kind of moving forward?

CW: I'm really hoping that the, the, that the government can be up to date with what society is thinking. Like the LGBTQ+ community, we're trying to like push for our rights, we're trying to push for you know equality, and just being seen as normal as everyone else. And like, in the coming years I hope that comes to pass, like I hope that we don't have to keep protesting about like gay rights, trans rights, and all this. Like, I hope that like, none of that is a problem anymore, you know? Like we don't have to be on the streets for that anymore, like we can be on the streets for other things. You know, like, and like, being gay, bi, lesbian, trans, queer, whatever it may be, is just a normal thing in 01:34:00our society. That's what I, that is my future. That is the future that I want to see, that is the future that could be. But it all starts with the government getting their shit together. And I feel as though that is the only way we'll ever get forward is if the laws reflect what society is thinking. That's the um, that's the best way I can put it. That I know how to put it. That the laws reflect what society thinks, is thinking because, you know every big change there's always been like big laws. Like Roe vs Wade, or, or other stuff like that. Like when Jim Crow got abolished, the Jim Crow laws got caught. So, it takes society and the government to be on the same page for the world to change. 01:35:00But it's America.

KM: I think that was very well said. Thank you for taking the time to sit down and have this little interview with me.

CW: I enjoyed it, although I had to remember some things. It was overall like, a little good interview. And it's made me realize sometimes things about myself that I didn't really think about, so yeah. I, I enjoyed this.

KM: Cool.